Davide Honey

Ashley Cottonwood wrote:Hi Davide,

Just looking for some clarification; my understanding is you're looking for an enzyme additive to add to a composting toilet system that combines urine with 'the rest'.

So you're looking for an additive to help with the smell. What is the end use/location of the composting toilet collection? Do you add anything already? Such as a carbon source (wood shavings?). What is the turnover rate for your current system?

Hello Ashley,
Not exactly. Currently I'm separating the urine and looking to treat it separately, possible with enzymes. The solids are composted using traditional methods with great success. I would like to reduce the urine imput in my composting piles to reduce the nitrogen levels.

Hello, Maybe someone has experience with managing/composting/neutralising the urine from compost toilets, let me explain before you answer.

I think we are all familiar with the standard techniques of deluting urine with water, not seperating urine from the compost toilet but keeping it together and composting it together, sending the urine to bushes and trees or various evaporation techniques but I'm asking something completely different.

Has anyone experimented with using enzymes for neutralising the acidity and smell of urine? I've tried all the other methods with good success and now i would like to look into the use of enzymes. If anyone has experience to share or knows of useable studies done on this subject and or has intelligent information to share i would greatly appreciate to hear from you.

Best regards
Davide

Todd Parr wrote:

"The system that I am talking about is not a climate battery system, and it is not a closed tube system.  The tubes are open at both ends and are simply using the constant temperature of the earth to heat and cool, as necessary.  With these systems, there is no mold growth within the system".


By "closed tube system" I meant "non perforated tubes" but open at both ends like you are suggesting. Because this type of system requires an adaquate length of pipe for the heat exchange to occurr, condensation from the air will remain inside the pipe especially in summer. This eventually leads to the mold growth problem i was speaking about.

Lindsey Jane wrote:I really just want to gather people's opinions about what to build our outdoor, underground root cellar out of.

I'm drawn to earth bags for all the obvious reasons. But I live in a very rainy part of the state - close to the actual rain forest and I'm concerned about the probability of water wrecking an earth bag construction.

We will be building the cellar into a north facing hill.

I've considered using french drains on top of a gravel foundation and then laying plastic sheeting over the construction before back filling.

Curious about several things:
1) Has anyone on here actually built an earthbag cellar in the PNW - and how successful has it been for you?
2) Has anyone used those giant plastic septic tanks (uh - NEW, of course) and how was that experience?
3) I do NOT want to do the cinderblock/ poured concrete route so am looking for other alternatives that can be long term sustainable in our climate.

I've got some books coming to help me figure out all the details but nothing comes close to talking with people who have first hand experience.

Thanks, everyone.

Hi, This may or may not help you along.

As with most building projects it depends on your budget. From a permaculture standpoint we try to use local materials as much as possible. If you have trees available you might want to consider Sepp Holzer's Root cellar and/or underground animal shelter. He lives in a cold and wet climate in Austria. See this Youtube link for further information:  

If you live in a rocky area and have a lot of stones laying around you might want to consider making the walls from a gabion structure. Here is one of the many Google links about gabions: http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/umrcourses/ge441/online_lectures/retention_structures/GE441-Lecture6-3.pdf

The roof construction could be wood or metal, again depending on your resources and your budget.

Todd Parr wrote:According to the Geo-Air Technology A-Z publication, geo-air systems are vulnerable to Radon gas contamination if you use perforated pipe, but solid pipe acts as a barrier against it.  Also "I've seen NO water accumulations from condensation in any of our tests, and therefore the perforated drain pipe, and drain pipe with slits are a liability in many ways."  In areas with high water tables, solid pipe will block the infiltration of ground water into the tubes, although that is not a concern where I am.  They give other reasons for solid pipe as well, and are pretty adamant that only solid pipe be used.

I agree it is really important not to confuse the Climate Battery System which uses perforated plastic tubes with „Geothermal Heating Systems“ which use closed tube systems. The except that i have included below from John Cruickshank via eco systems design inc. explains the Climate Battery concept and why perforated tubes are „essential“ for it to function. Unless you are just into experimenting why re-invent the wheel? There is more than a decade of experience out there on both systems that you can read up on.

One of the big problems that occurred with „closed pipe“ geothermal heating systems that use (air) for heat transfer was and is „mold growth“ inside the tubes. For this reason the house building industry has moved away from „closed pipe - air systems“ and now uses closed loop „fluid“ systems usually in connection with heat pumps.

To gain more “Climate Battery” or earth battery to extend the heating capacity in winter you must go deeper and build layers of perforated tubes and earth. If this is economically practical is another question. For this reason auxiliary heating sources like wood or pellet stoves are generally used as an alternative solution.

Climate Battery Functions
http://www.ecosystems-design.com/climate-batteries.html

The magic of phase change from liquid to vapor and back again drives the Climate Battery™, or Subterranean Heating and Cooling System (SHCS).  The system functions like a simple refrigeration system, moving heat from one place to another. But a typical 1200 square foot greenhouse needs only the equivalent equipment and running costs of a single large household refrigerator!

By slowly circulating all of the hot, moist daytime air of the greenhouse down underground where it is always cooler than the greenhouse air, the Climate Battery forces the vapor to condense. By doing so, the solar heat as well as the chemical heat from the plant photosynthesis that was required to evaporate the moisture in the first place is forced into the soil. The "miracle" is that by inducing temperature change over the phase change barrier we have the potential to harness 5 times the energy normally the case if we simply tried to solar heat objects cluttering up your precious greenhouse floor space. And by inducing this "dewpoint" condition in the soil of the greenhouse, the plant roots are always being bathed in warm, moist conditions - the perfect balance for plants and solar greenhouses. The space is heated by the massive amount of radiating solar heat stored in the soil under the greenhouse, and with fans to circulate cooler nighttime greenhouse air through the tubing network, adding warmth and moisture back to the greenhouse.  

@EvanNilla who wrote:
and others.

"there are no real design systems i know of. plenty of things i've thought about, but, really only 'rough ass mainframes' and i haven't had time like i used to to organize plant databases, i lost/forgot a lot of it(life changes). Either way, most of it was a long the lines of "these weeds will not actually be detrimental and if green manured beneficial with these edibles, this weed has potential for edibility, etc". Its what i'm saying, there are so many unknown elements right now. the topic is why isn't permaculture more popular. because its like a 'plant nerd' thing or its like some weird new-age spirituality thing... there are no simple design patterns to follow and the typical overstory/understory model does not work because there is not enough solar radiation. So far i haven't really noticed anyone mimicking a transitional prairie to forest in the north, as this is what it would take as a base."

I hear what you are saying Evan but i can't say that i agree.

I have only just recently began to do some reseach on large(er) scale permaculture farms. I don't have enough Information yet to really speak in any depth about the subject yet but I have found some interesting stuff on the internet including a „Permies Forum“ thread from one year ago called: Who do you think has the best large scale permaculture system?

I am listing two examples (links) for you to look at. I don't know all the details about these two farms but especially the work from Gabe Brown and his talk on Building Healthy Soil seems to fit the decription of large scale permaculture. Geoff Lawton also has a large scale permaculture farm and feeds hunderds of guests and trainees every year but I'm guessing without machinery harvesting and with free labor which I believe was your point in question.
Mr. Brown however does use massive machinery. It's a completely different style of L:S. permaculture compared to Lawton's but it seems to work well.

Take a look I think you'll be suprised. And I would be curious to hear what you think.

https://permies.com/t/42610/soil/Keys-Building-Healthy-Soil

http://www.permaculturevoices.com/permaculture-voices-podcast-028-industrial-farmer-to-beyond-organic-icon-will-harris-iii-of-white-oak-pastures

Saluti
Permadave

Nobody is stupid for not understanding permaculture from the get go. It is a very complex system because nature and ecosystems are extreamly complex systems. Try to explain the human immune system to someone, then add how different kinds of food intake affect the system, then add stress to the picture. The complexity builds with each interaction.

I have completed the PDC course with G.Lawton and i am currently in my second year of advanced permaculture training working towards my international diploma for permaculture design. Even now after two and a half years of studying I am just now starting to really understand the system and I am amazed at how little I know compared to what I still need to know. The big advantage in joining a training programm is the opportunity to visit, see and touch a variety of differnt landscapes, climate zones, customers visions and their wish lists. My current teacher has been working and teaching excusively in permaculture for over 15 yearly now and his experience and the hands-on training is invaluable. The training takes aprox. three years to complete. We meet four weekends a year and must complete 10 design projects of our choice. Anything from designing a compost toilet to complete Zone 0-5 planings are considered a project. Three of the 10 designs are then reviewed by a committee of diplom designers and a series of questions are asked about why this or the other project was designed in this way and a fesability study of your design is considered in the review. Your design doesn't have to be faultless but it does have to work. The judging and review process takes around two hours. I suppose there are other ways of learning but four weekends a year and an online PDC course should be possible for anyone who is really serious about learning the trade and doesn't want to reinvent the wheel by trail and error.

For me the unserious misunderstanding around permaculture surrounds with what I believe in the US they call "Purple Permaculture" the mixing of new age sprituality subjects with permaculture design science. Don't get me wrong everyone should do whatever keeps their boat a float but please don't be implementing your beliefe systems on to a design science. Permaculture has nothing to do with creating nice circular garden plots or herb sprials without consideration of location or climate. I consider myself to be a very spritual person but I choose not to mix the one with the other because I want to reach those "Farmer" guys out there and for that I am willing to curb my personal preferences because I know that many of the people I want to reach are the more conserative types. Currently our goal here in Switzerland where I am living is to create a foundation for permaculture studies and start-up assistance. In addition we are looking to start a demonstration farm to move the permaculture movement more towards small scale community farming and somewhat less with personal homestead gardens. We would like to create more influence where most of the damage is being done, namely commercial farming.

For those who are concerned with promoting permaculture and protecting it's name I say first learn it well yourself. A well designed and funtioning system, be it a garden, a food forest or a comerical farm is all the convincing that you will have to do. Like the saying goes... a picture is worth a thousand words! Stick with it, stay determined and learn from others.

Saluti! From Permadave an expat abroad