tc20852 Hatfield

Paul,

what are the units for the reading on that radon detector?

Thomas

Here is my 2c worth.

from what you say this is a subsidy based around a state tax break? but you need a official forestry planting plan from the extension agent?

Usually when discussing the plan you will be encouraged to express the reasons for wishing to do the planting and what your goals are. I think you might find talking about permaculture a non-starter. Try telling them you want to develop for mixed woodland good for hunting (Ha! that will get you buckets more understanding). No, really....just about anything you would want to include for a permaculture setup will be valid for encouraging wildlife and sport. You know....tasty looking white tail, quail, duck and foraging permies.

As for the planting techniques. Have you ever tried planting up 5 acres by hand? Yeah it can be done. I did about a single acre 3 years ago...and I only had a weekend to do it. The land is nearly all clay hard pan. Good exercise. I had to give up on the planting iron an use a mattock to chisel a hole for each seedling. It was a good thing they were pine tubelings and not those bare-root, 3ft suckers.

Honestly, you are not going to get enough mulch to do all the trees. You are not going to get enough sheet steel to smother the weeds. Best is to get a tractor in, turn it over, then use a planter. Don't do straight lines make 'em wavey, as this will give it a much more natural look.  You might plant most of it with a simple mix of species that the extension agent/forestry dude suggests but go back in and hand plant in some choice "islands" of high value species. Spend your efforts on these high value groupings and let the rest fend for themselves.

My experience may not be as applicable to your situation perhaps. My land once was tobacco/cotton but perhaps around the 60's got planted up with loblollies. These and the sweetgum got logged maybe 8 years ago, we bought the clearcut moonscape perhaps 4 years ago. Interestingly the succession took a while to get going. Even after the first 4 years, at the time we first saw the land, there were not many annuals around. We started planting at that time, here and there. Three years ago I had 1 acre cleared and planted up LL pine (trying for a savanna ecosystem). Fast forward 4 years and a lot of the sweetgum is regenerating from root sprouts. Loblollies and white oak following behind. Blackberry has taken over and , although its making the place unsightly, I have noticed some of my chestnuts growing through the briars. Considering the numbers of deer in the area, this may be a good thing (and a lot cheaper than chickenwire guards).

What i am saying...is that I didn't get much competition from annuals in the first few years because the site was clearcut. Your land has been in grass, so the seed bank will be biased towards annuals. These will be more of a problem I think. First year is critical. Spend time on your high value species.

Thomas

Black locust has unusually high amounts of calcium oxalate. Apparently one can see crystals of calcium oxalate in thin sections of the wood. I suppose presence of oxalates might inhibit microbes as it would severely disrupt their uptake of iron.

I do know that during my time in the southern Appalachians, black locust was always used wherever rot resistance was needed and that included raised beds, composting bins and retaining walls.

I don't think you need worry about toxicity. The wood is pretty 'tight' and what fraction is going to get into your compost? I knew people using locust for compost bins and they never had problems getting a pile to heat.

Thomas

LoonyK

I have thought along similar lines in the past. I suspect that much of those nagging concerns about permaculture might stem from the fact that permaculture is somewhat in its infancy. Now I am sure people will jump on this quoting Lawton's words on "3 thousand year food forests", but, honestly, permaculture has only been "gelling" for the last 10-20 years.

Any new field attracts those inspired pioneers that map out the trail ahead. These people tend to attract a dedicated group of followers, and, in order to  further their work they need to finance it from those that want to listen to  them.

Having said that, there is also a negative aspect to permaculture. When I first  got interested in the subject, much of what I could find were advertisements for permaculture courses. It seemed funny at first. "Boutique Hippy Gardening" I thought, laughing....then I noticed how commercialized it was. I even saw on one forum the sentence "I just finished my permaculture course, I cant wait to start teaching my permaculture course back home!". Obviously at this stage Permaculture risks becoming, not a pyramid scheme, but something close to a direct selling scheme similar to Amway. Money is to be made in selling Permaculture, rather than in doing permaculture itself. I guess it saves one from getting hands dirty.

These concerns have steered me away from ever taking that $499.95 three day course. After all, who wants to hear regurgitated notes someone took six weeks ago at their permaculture teacher training course?

The danger with this road, down which permaculture might be heading, is that it may inhibit *free* dissemination of ideas. All of a sudden people are thinking "gosh I had to pay hundreds of bucks to know this. I'm not going to tell anyone what I know for free". Communication will break down, there will be no peer review, no criticism, no data collected, no data exchanged. The subject will stagnate and die.

Actually more interesting is this online forum.

Real people doing gardening, exchanging ideas. We have a dedicated moderator, Paul Wheaton who must give up much of his spare time to inject new subjects, keep flame wars to a minimum and generally keeping things entertaining. This is all for free, and in return we are free with our own knowhow....a very 21st century, wiki kind of endeavor. So you may or may not be right about the Sepp, but that is not really important....his ideas will crop up here. So what do you think of them? have you tried any of them out...can you share the info...it will be free, fun and fascinating. Umm a lot of f words go well together, no?

All the best

Thomas

I am no expert in fruit trees, but I do have some experience with apple and plum. I think that even if you want to "never prune" you will end up pruning at the end of each season.

This is why.

Ok so you let your 5yr old fruit tree go another 3 years without cutting, and you now have very heavy production. Oops there is a late summer/fall gale and you just lost a limb. Now what are you going to do? Trim up the broken limb? Thin out the other branches? Oh...you noticed a couple of crossing branches, rubbing a lot are they? Looks like you are going to get busy with that pruning saw.

Before you know it you will have pruned yourself a very respectable heavy cropping specimen.

So Holzer is probably right. Not much need for pruning if you are constantly doing light pruning all the time. Betcha you will see most of his trees conforming to the standard forms.

You have to remember that the cultivars we use are selected for the fruit qualities only. I doubt any effort goes into selection for form. Form will have to come from pruning or maybe stunting growth by grafting onto a "pygmy" root stock.

Having said that, there is no need to be constrained by convention. Try it! You are recommended to make an open vase?...try a central leader. Peach as a tree? why not prune heavily and make a hedge? Tell us how it goes.

Too many Americans take Fukuoka's terminology "do nothing" far too literally. I think that the "do nothing" phrase is just used as a shock phrase to grab the typical Japanese persons attention. Remember this is the country that rather than saying "well done man!" they say "Ganbatte kudasai", work harder!!

All the best,

Thomas

I will probably be staying ~2 years.

Unfortunately with the way the economy has trended over the last 10 years I am unable to get work for much longer than 24 month stretches.

I tend to find an outlet for my gardening instincts in guerrilla gardening (I have left behind a trail of Dunstan Chestnut seedlings all the way down the east coast ). However this time we have a rental with some space. I am not so worried about seeing anything get to maturity. I get a kick out of leaving something useful behind.

Generally I have worked off a shoe-string budget. I may purchase a plant but strip it for cuttings. I currently have ~30 eastern blight resistant filberts. Would have been expensive to purchase but grown from the seed less than a meal out for the family (mind you it was very hard keeping the squirrels off them).

Something I have noticed about this land. Its very sandy, well drained. There are vetches everywhere, so presumably low in nitrogen. I don't think the land is very fertile.

I would love to have chickens, but this place is within the city limits. I grew up with hens and miss them dearly. Very social animals.

Sweet potato sounds a good idea, and I know it does well in this area. Never grown them though. I have heard people talk about growing them from "slips". Know anything about this?

Thomas

OK folks. some ideas please.

We moved recently to a new rental house with quite a nice garden. Part of my rental agreement was to maintain the garden. The landlady was quite apologetic to begin with, but after seeing my interest, she was quite happy to let me plant some new things. I have a lot of leeway in replacing dying (er...probably prematurely) bushes...just she didn't want the place turned into a vegetable plot ("yes Ma' am its an ornamental plum, *very ornamental*)

I am in the coastal region of South Carolina. Z7b/8. sandy soil. Some light shade in the back with loblollies. A lot of the area near the front of the east facing house has been blighted with <shock horror> landscape cloth. I plan to get that out ASAP and replace with grass/leaf mulches.

I was wondering what people here would nominate as their first 5 plants to get established? Would I go for some of the larger plants such as a fruit tree, or perhaps look into N2 fixing ground covers to get going first thing in the spring?

I would be interested in hearing any suggestions.

Thomas

Its Great to have an artist thinking about this. You could have all sorts of fun designing new types of roofing tile.

Where I grew up all the houses used red clay "pantile". This tile has a S-shaped cross section, in effect each tile curls up over its neighbor to shelter the joint from weather. I am sure there are lots of alternative shapes that would still function. Have you thought about making different shaped tiles that could work together on the same structure?? you could get all sorts of new textures designed into the roof. Umm...this has got me thinking.

You might have something well worth patenting.

The main thing to think about, as far as the structure goes, is weight. A tile roof is far more heavier than the asphalt shingle you see in USA. Not only does the roof timbers have to be stronger, the walls also have to withstand the extra compression *and* the force tending to push the walls outwards.

Hence you find houses in the UK will have tile roofs and brick or stone walls. Stick built can still be found, but only for chickens! really!

I noticed in Japan that tile was used a lot, but they quite often used a glaze as well. Often a dark blue. Don't really know why. Some of the older structures were very impressive. Massive pole barn type of construction with curving, overhanging rooves.

Keep us informed on your progress....and give us some pictures!

Thomas

At one time sunlight was the only bleaching action one could use to get your "whites whiter than white". There were businesses built up around taking white fabric laundry and pegging it out on south facing slopes to give it a good dose of UV.

Eventually modern soaps took over. Interestingly the most popular laundry soap was "Sunlight" produced by the Lever brothers that eventually became the company Unilever. The Sunlight brand is still marketed in Africa but has been superseded by their "billion dollar" brand, Surf, in Europe.

There is a similar history behind Procter and Gambel in the USA. P&G and Unilever pretty much control the entire soaps industry.

Nothing beats the smell you get from cotton sheets hung out on a clothes line though!

I think that keeping it simple is best. Use the humanure technique if possible.

Dont bother to separate pee and poop. Why would you want to upset your N/P/K ballance? Use plenty of sawdust/newspaper/shredded woody plants to get enough carbon content and the mixture will compost no problems in a heap.

As a family we did this over a 6 week period while we were fixing the bathroom. My daughters (4 and 5 at the time) had no problem with this. Infact they seemed to like the bucket since it was non-flushing (they reeely hate the automatic flushing things you can find at public rest rooms these days, or as they say "The Magic Potties").

One might be a bit squeamish at first...but its not so bad. The sawdust has a nice aroma and poop smell soon turns earthy.

THere is a very good reason humanure is ultimately the only way forward. We have to close the nutrient loop. Make garden. Pick veggies. Cook dinner. Poop. Compost. Back to garden...etc.

Admittedly you cant do this on a suburban lot. The neighbors are gong to get the City onto you like a ton of bricks, but out on your Permie retreat.....you gonna throw away all that plant food??

Happy composting.

Thomas

PS if you want some light hearted reading, check out the composting thread on GardenWeb "You Know You are a Composting Whacko when...."
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/midatl/2002101805019109.html