Stan Warfield

Good Evening Fellow Permies,

I have an abundance of surplus logs on my property so I thought I would try an experiment. I will build a massive crescent shaped hugel around the base of a fairly mature mesquite tree (photo of the first morning's work attached).  Once the hugel is built, I will plant ground cover, herbs, shrubs, etc.... on the mound, then try to plant a tree in the middle. Preferably a tree that is borderline for my zone 8B with only 14 inches of rain per year. The reasons for this experiment are as follows... 1) Is it true that mesquites are a decent "nurse plant" that provide nutrients and shade for other plants to thrive under their wonderful dappled shade canopy, or will the mesquite roots outcompete other plants for water? As the wood in the hugel decomposes, how will the central tree perform? 3) Will the central tree thrive on neglect being surrounded by such a bounty of carbon, etc...?

This spot is not ideal as the mesquite is on the northeast side of where I am going to plant the tree, however I do have mountains, cottonwoods and a sycamore nor far away to the northwest which helps alleviate the harsh afternoon sunshine that we see in Arizona.

I don't know what to plant yet, but I am leaning towards a nut tree, possibly a walnut. I want something that could potentially get very big as shade is a major asset here.

The big question is, how would I define success? I would imagine that success would be the mesquite slowly dies back due to excess moisture, shade, chop and dropping, etc... and the new plants thrive and take over the area. BTW, I have nothing against mesquitee trees, but I have dozens of them on my property so I am trying to add diversity and explore the potential of hugelkultur in my area.

I hope to keep you all posted on my progress. Let me know if you have any tips for plants I might want to consider planting in this endeavor or if this entire project is a fools errand for one reason or another.

I am reading Mycelium Running and just read the part where Paul Stamets talks about being friends with Frank Herbert. Pretty cool.

What I find so interesting about all of this is that many areas that are in good shape climate wise seem to be subsidizing the lifestyles, etc... of the areas that are not in good shape. Yet, if you ask someone from a blue area if they want to stop funneling tax revenue towards red areas via more federalism, state rights, etc... they will likely say no. Furthermore they might even say we need more government support for those areas via more social safety nets, etc...

I don't mean to get political, but if there are no financial consequences for people living in areas that are not sustainable will people actually move? It may seem hypocritical for me to say this since I am in Arizona, a state that will get hit really hard, but I am totally on board with millions of Arizonan's moving to Minnesota, etc..., and I will continue my permaculture dream here of seeing what's possible in increasingly harsh environment. I don't mind the work required. After all, anyone can move to a pristine wilderness with perfect weather and say look how nice my land is. Its a completely different thing to take a degraded property and turn it into paradise while protecting and enhancing the ecosystem.

Hugo Morvan wrote:That's interesting, love it if "our" folk come on Rogan. Long interviews, he let's them speak and be themselves. The rest of the media landscape don't give a hoot.

Totally agree. Joe seemed to be quite alarmed at most of what Frank was telling him.  The only thing missing would have been Frank mentioning Permaculture as a solution when Joe kept asking questions along the lines of "what can we do about all of this!?".

Hi Everyone. I thought some of you might enjoy this interview with Frank von Hippel.

http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/frank-von-hippel

"Frank A. Von Hippel is an expert in ecotoxicology: the study of how pollutants impact human health and the environment at large. A professor at Northern Arizona University, Von Hippel is the author of The Chemical Age: How Chemists Fought Famine and Disease, Killed Millions, and Changed Our Relationship with the Earth, and the host of The Science History Podcast."

I learned a lot but it was also very depressing thinking about all the damage our species has done recently :(

greg mosser wrote:what’s the chop and drop stuff you’ve mentioned? do you have particular things that you’ve brought in and really want to be there, or is it just stuff that’s shown up and won’t be too hard to allow to come back?

I have been chopping and dropping branches, limbs, etc... from the desert adapted trees onto areas that need more mulch and nutrients. This would include low lying basins with citrus trees fig trees, a guava, mangos, papaya, mulberries, etc... While these trees do need supplemental irrigation the chop and drop material has really helped reduce the volume of water needed and the soil health has really improved over the years. It would be a shame to tear it all out and cover it with plastic then rocks.

Jack Edmondson wrote:Stan,

Whatever you decide, please vet your renters thoroughly.  I rented to someone whom posted to here.  It was an  disaster.  Regardless of their interest in permaculture; know whom you are renting your property.  It sounds like you have experience and a good property manager.  Good call.  Wish I had done the same.

Thanks Jack. I am worried about this as well. While I do want someone who has similar values regarding ecology, sustainability, etc.... I don't want anyone who can't pay the bills, or someone that would be hostile to me renting a house and considers me an evil capitalist landlord or something like that.  I still have a mortgage on this house and have my own bills to pay too.  

James Landreth wrote:I would try to rent it as is, or as close to that as possible. I think if it's marketed as having edible landscaping you will have takers.

With things being so unstable, I think it's a real shame to destroy any sort of perennial food production. A lot of people are struggling to pay bills right now. Being able to cut down even a little on groceries will be a big relief for many people.

Good point. This is the perfect house if you want 10'000 grapefruits between April and June :)

Something else I should mention is that I did not install irrigation. I did not want lots of plastic pipes and hoses all over the property and I wanted to see what was possible in my climate without constant water. As a result, I would imagine that several of the smaller fruit trees I put in (mostly citrus) might not make it without a slow soak every few weeks, until they become more established, but there are lots of established plants that should be fine, particularly things like pomegranates, grapes, two massive grapefruit trees, and of course natives like mesquite and palo verde for nitrogen. There are also a few acacias and a chinese elm that look like they absolutely love being in this crazy record breaking summer that has ravaged us this year in the southwest.

Maybe I can post an ad on craigslist and se what response I get.

Thanks Thomas. In the past I have used property managers when I rented homes and I always felt so detached from the process, which is kind of the point I guess. It would be nice to know the people who rent the house, without being in their business, but also knowing that we have similar values. I have also thought about trying to hire a professional landscaper to help maintain what I have started on this house, but I am not sure if they would grasp the concept of "chop and drop" when their primary job seems to involve chopping everything then hauling it away so the yard looks pristine.

The property is in Phoenix AZ, so what I am trying to do here might be more challenging here than in a more environmentally conscientious place like Portland or Berkley. One of the reasons for doing permaculture in a challenging environment like AZ ties back to what Bill Mollison talked about regarding permies settling in areas where the land needs help, as opposed to migrating to places that are already environmentally healthy. Phoenix needs more trees/plants to help mitigate our urban heat island, etc... so maybe if we can set a good example of what can be done here on 7 inches of rain and 110+ degree summers it could have a positive impact.