Anna C

I really enjoy the use of the word orthogonal in this conversation, such a dual meaning . I think we have beat a dead horse. Valid points all the way around on both parts. Thank you for explaining your view points.

I think we have to remember that it is a choice for the large scale USDA certified organic producer to use the urea purified from various manures...there is nothing in the USDA organic rules that states they cannot use the actual manure, if it is done within a certain time 120 or 90 days respectively.  Choice, that is point. To say the USDA organic is useless is an opinion, from a permaculture standpoint, but not everyones. I respect that it is yours.

You are right not all GMO's are made by monsanto. There is wonderful work in the medical field being done with GMO's and I am amazed and grateful for the diversity that is being brought forth. Do I believe they are all altruistic, no, if you are that is wonderful. It was not a personal slam, it was an observation similiar to your comment on the USDA organic standards. Working within those standards now, I can say it is not against what I do with permaculture; it is a choice to educate oneself to all that is available on the site and to implement what is best for the land. This includes many of the practices of permaculture.

USDA Certified Organic, does not sanction the use of chemicals. It does allow it, which makes it a choice and one I and others that are Organic and permie, teach not to use and why it is better not to. The attra site does teach what to do instead of using chemicals; no till, hedge rows, Biodynamic gardening, companinion planting, soil first, tolerance when it comes to weeds, mono-culture, etc. and so on. It teaches common every day practices all can understand and is not beyond the home gardener. People on this forum are intelligent, and I think can differentiate between wise practices, and insane ones such as the use of pesticides (which includes herb, and any other cide). Remember Organic in itself just means the molecule has a carbon at it center. What we do with the 'Organic' moniker is what makes the difference.
GMO crops.... the jury is still out on that in my opinion. Just more testing needed. I would rather see people develop critical thinking skills to do the research and make decisions based on a wide range of knowledge.  I would hope they do more research, which takes a long period of time... and unfortunately that means cost is involved. Thus the 'characteristics of convenience' come into it. Money is the grease in the wheel. Sad but true. There is money is GMO's and they are not altruistic in the development. Sustainability is not the first purpose, at least in food production GMO's. Good post Opcn.

I have found this an interesting thread. I work in a therapeutic garden for children that is certified organic. My whole purpose in the garden is to bring about a more permie approach to the garden while still making it accessible to the people that use it.
What I have found with the organic standards is there is nothing that stops us from putting permaculture practices into place, in fact it is encouraged. You are right they do not allow for humanure, but I believe in the future that will change.
If you look on the attra sight there is much information on how to create a healthier, mono-culture, tree filled, hedge rowed plant rich, encouraging wild-life, ecosystem, for our 'gardens' than one would think. You just have to look. 
It is a great site that actually discourages plowing, trashing the soil, and tries to teach healthier methods.
It is a struggle. Do I agree with everything on the site, no. But when you are working with people that 'think' they have loved the land, and really do love the land, it takes time, patience and understanding. The attra site has been very helpful to me in introducing many topics that never would have been looked at  had it not been under  their designation.
I have and am learning to work patiently towards the day I can introduce more permie ideas, with the understanding it will be under the guise of saving them money and time. That is okay by me if it teaches what needs to happen.

Anna

Would love to be attending but alas, I live in Seattle and am in the Hort program at Lake Washington. Just a note, I introduced your book 'Gaia's Garden' to my instructor Don Marshall, told him it was my 'garden bible' (no, I do not worship him, just a great book) and my instructor read it and ordered it. He felt it was the best example of what he taught throughout the years and really enjoyed it.  Excellent.

Love the book!  Anna

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting and I am enjoying the sites.
When I picked up Steve Soloman's book, I was disappointed. Being a foodie, a gardener and a Hort student, it really wasn't fair of me to be critical though. His book is for beginners, and I do not agree with all of his ideas, but it will be a start for some people. I found it in the grocery store, which tells you who it is being marketed to, so I am not sure we should expect to much from it. Brian did mention that he did not know what permaculture was, and it did get him on the path of seeking more info out. If that is what his book achieves then kudo's. The more people get their hands in the soil, the more they will seek and discover what is out there about gardening, permaculture, everything.
Everyone starts somewhere.

Great site and great conversation!

Anna

Hi tel,

I would be interested in what you are doing in a little more detail. If you could send me some more info to my email, listed below, I will get in touch. Interesting proposition and great idea!

Anna

merrowwind@yahoo.com