Teri Capshaw

We're finally getting into ducks more officially with 10 Khaki Campbell ducklings on their way in May.

We have an area where we plan to add a little pond where the ducks can make use of drainage from a fodder unit. It will also be close to our future garden so we can use a transfer pump to water the garden.

We plan to build a pen around the pond and add a duck house. We will also have a gate to give the ducks access to the garden as desired.

We have the rights to use and sell numerous chicken coops and sheds blueprints and think it would be fun to make modifications for the ultimate duck setup.

With that in mind, I would love to hear about the features you have or would like to have for a duck house.  

Thank you. That's helpful information.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Are your freedom rangers fairly consistent in weight? I had 70 last year and some were huge while others were really tiny at 20 weeks. I didn't know if it was a fluke or my supplier or if they're always like that.

It is great chicken. People at our church potlucks make a beeline for the pot after I put it down!

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

You have to be sure to order all males.  If you got a straight run the females will be smaller.  I only order direct from the hatchery.  With all males the size is reasonably consistent.  Obviously some will put on more weight whether due to better genetics or just being more aggressive with feeding.  I’d say 90% are +-0.5lbs from the average.  With occasional outliers on both ends.

Haha. That's all that really matters in the end!

Gir The Bot wrote:I imagine all these meat birds would go great in all my tacos!!!

Are your freedom rangers fairly consistent in weight? I had 70 last year and some were huge while others were really tiny at 20 weeks. I didn't know if it was a fluke or my supplier or if they're always like that.

It is great chicken. People at our church potlucks make a beeline for the pot after I put it down!

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

Your Dorkings are gorgeous. Please do keep me in mind. I'd be happy to wait a year or more to get some from you. It's not something that needs to happen right now.
I've just wanted to get something going for years but haven't committed to it like you did.

I could plan ahead and give them their own pasture with ideal areas for broody hens. We are going to start a small orchard next spring and I plan to add another chicken pasture there while the trees are young and I don't want to have to keep sheep, goats, and cattle away from each tree.

Kristine Keeney wrote:Sandhill Hatchery has good, "old style" Dorkings.  I was able to get a mix of varieties last year and they are all grown up into beautiful birds.

I found them to be healthier than the Dorkings I got from Murray McMurray, with better survival, better foraging skills, better broody tendencies, and so far are fantastic mothers.
I have a hen in a plastic tote in my spare room right now who is standing guard over her 4 chicks from 6 random eggs I gave her March 8th.

The Murray McMurray ones did have good traits 20 years ago but haven't had "broodiness" in about 10 years aside from the rare atavist. I think in the past 60 birds that have survived past their first winter, I've had 2 Murray McMurray hens go broody. So far this spring, of the 6 Dorking hens that spring to mind from Sandhill, 3 of them have gone broody to the point where I've given them eggs: one left her nest after an egg went bad and got broken (in that order), the Angry Broody in my spare room hatched 4 out of 6, and another hen has 4 eggs under her. Considering it's been two years since I had a broody hen that I knew about (last year, while I was going through some medical shenanigans, a Golden Comet hatched out 5 chicks from a nest that was a complete surprise) and that was sticking to the nest enough to hatch, ... I'm getting more birds from there.

I've liked Dorkings since I got serious about having chickens and searched them out for the long history. I figure the genes are there, carried forward, they just need to be selected for the "right" things.

I'm working with the intention of setting up a foundation flock here. I'd love to have Silver Greys, Light Greys, Blacks, and Rose Combed Colored or Single Comb Colored - beautiful birds all of them, but we'll have to see what The Fates bring in their typical "Take with one hand, Give with the other" style.

If I can get some decent birds going  - right now I'm testing things - we can talk about maybe a swap or something for next year. Or you might get some chicks from Sandhill or one of the small private hatcheries I've found online.
There are flocks of "good" Dorkings out there. It's a matter of finding them and convincing someone to part with chicks. That's tricky right now.

Thank you for all the information.

Have you found Dorkings that are both fertile and strong? I've been interested in them for years, but sat on one waitlist after another and had a friend raising them who had trouble with fertility and weak chicks. She sent me hatching eggs once (along with an other breed's eggs) but none hatched as she feared.

But they are obviously an old breed. I have to hope someone has a solid source!

Kristine Keeney wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:I was just telling my mom today that I'm doing my best to hold off on geese until next year so I don't get myself overwhelmed with all the projects! I really want them for the fat. I am considering Pilgrim Geese. Do you have any other suggestions?

I have African Geese and really enjoy them as flock guardians. They're a good size and grow very fast. Mine eat a combination of the chicken feed for layers, forage in the fenced yard and graze in the back fenced yard and when I let them out onto the rest of the property for a wander.
I'm hoping to get my hands on some Cotton Patch Geese, or something that's a bit more broody - my one broody goose died a few years back and the current two lay eggs, but don't show any signs of brooding this year.

Pilgrim Geese are a great size for meat birds and are much easier to keep, as well as being auto-sexing (if they're the breed I'm remembering).
Embden are the one most common for meat goose, but they're all pretty tasty. African and Chinese are leaner than the European breeds, so getting a nicer, fatter, carcass is easier with the Embden or Pilgrim.

I haven't butchered one of mine - there's been the accidental attrition you get in a rural area and someone bought a gander from me, but I haven't expanded the flock much. That's a project for later.
I do cook geese. Well, I *did* cook geese, for holidays and such when there was a point to having that much meat on the table.
One thing I've learned over the years of messing with them, though, is that they put on a lot of meat from graze and simple foraging. They aren't as wasteful about things as the chickens, being softer on the environment in general. Chickens do scratch up the countryside given a half chance.

Teri Capshaw wrote:We are high desert in Idaho with no irrigation, but I think they would really love some of our irrigation canal seep areas (yes, we are surrounded by canals--just can't use the water. Some wild story about a previous owner pulling a gun on a ditch rider!)
We have also raised turkeys and my mom is going to try to get me some of her Bourbon Red eggs to hatch.

It sure is something of a hassle to set up a meat flock, but since we have plenty of barley sprouts I figured this is good timing. If we are successful, I definitely have friends who would like to get fertile hatching eggs locally.

It's a hassle to set up any specialized flock that you intend for larger numbers or to be self-sustaining. I would think the cheaper way is to start with a breed or variety you like and build those numbers through careful breeding, and use bulk chicks (the random heritage breeds and such) to serve as your greater numbers. If you start a few extra that you keep back for breeding purposes, and build up through time and experiments, it will serve you long term.
In broad generalities, of course.

Developing your own landrace "breed" or variety of chicken, out of the assorted heritage breeds you're able to track down to fill out your pens this year, would be a great selling point for later years/seasons. You'd, over time, be able to "create" a type of chicken that would do well on forage, pasture, and fodder and would be suited to your weather. It would be a long term goal, though. Not much help for this year, but a plan to set up for next year and so on.

I'm setting up my flock of Dorkings, but only need to please myself, really.  No market for meat birds that I've grown. I sell eggs for feed money and keep the birds because they're fun.
I've seen flocks of geese grown for market. Turkeys, and heritage turkeys especially, probably have a great spot on the "home-grown meat" marketplace and are an easier sale. Geese aren't that common in the American diet, broadscale. Trying to sell goose eggs isn't worth the trouble unless you already know people or are willing to ship.

Basically? My advice is to make a plan for next year. Hopefully the current crush on the market will be lifting by September, when the second major chick market will start up. Since all the newbies are loading up right now, they will, hopefully, be full up with newly producing layers and trying to figure out how to cook the chicks they raised up. If you can reach a hatchery, and the internet is a great resource for that though the quality isn't what it should be from the Big Hatcheries, then you can place an order for hybrids or one of the less popular types for this year - just to get through so you can grow them out.
By trying to keep back enough birds to start up next year's flock (assuming you're able to get things going to please your customers), you'll be ahead of any possible crunch that will be present next spring. It means having to feed the birds through the winter, which isn't ideal, but having ready made layers and/or future flock parents takes some of the pressure off finding chicks.
It's a big trade-off. Convenience of getting chicks shipped to you and not having to feed, or having your own flock to parent the grow-outs and not having to worry about a lack of supply.

Good luck, no matter what you decide to do!

I know exactly what you're talking about Andrew. The summer I was 14 years old I raised and--with the help of my mom and brother--processed 500 Cornish Rocks. They were mostly the old style--healthy birds running all over six acres and returning to their coop at night once they got out of the brooder and grew like weeks on a simple diet of COB along with whatever they found.
Then our last batch that summer was a completely different strain. They started having heart attacks at 4 weeks old, we were in a panic and started getting the feed restriction advice.
I've searched for the old type. Welp's slow whites might be close, but not quite right. Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Kristine Keeney wrote:

Andrew Mayflower wrote:If you were to do the original Cornish Rock cross you wouldn't get the frankenchicken we see in the grocery store.  You'd get something a lot closer to what was sold in stores 50-60 years ago when that breed first became commercially viable.  Rather than a 5-6lb carcass in 7-8 weeks it would probably be more like 12-14 weeks for that same size, and the breast meat wouldn't be as ridiculous.  Probably more breast meat than a "normal" chicken, but still within natural bounds.  The commercial hatcheries have spent the last 50 years or so "improving" that cross, and now have proprietary parent stock that would be nigh unto impossible for an individual to recreate without deep insider knowledge.  Even the Freedom Rangers are all but impossible to really recreate on a homestead.

This is something I would raise - the Not-A-Frankenchicken version. I've looked at the various hybrids, but decided against them due to an experience I had over 20 years ago with two Cornish Cross birds that were given to me when they stopped "being cute". One had a heart attack and the other got too heavy to stand on it's own. Never again will I have such birds and I feel for the critters created for this horrible mess. But ... I also support your right to do what you want, so ... ?

A sustainable Cornish Cross, not the current version as produced out of the Big Hatcheries, but a more reasonable bird is something I would consider as a meat bird. You're still talking about about a 4 month period for a grow-out, but the birds wouldn't be the mushy mouth feel you see in commercial chicken or the too fast Frankenbird of the "C-Monsters", to use a well known advocate's term.
But, yeah. I have my own flock of "heritage" meat birds and no reason to raise just for meat purposes. I'll be happy with my small flock of Dorking-on-the-hoof. I've found I don't need a large freezer if thy don't need frozen.

I seem to recall someone (Joel Salatin??) trying to develop  a meat chicken that could be raised by homesteaders.  So it had to "breed true" in addition to having the faster grow out and carcass size needed.  I believe he tried crossing CRX commercial birds with Delaware.  Or maybe it was a heritage Cornish x Delaware.  Basically he was trying to get a reasonably fast growth with (niche) commercially desirable carcass quality, that didn't require artificial insemination to breed.  

IIRC that project was eventually abandoned because all those goals couldn't be met, or least not in an economically viable manner.

That's why folks that are raising commercially still skew very heavily to CRX, and those that don't like raising CRX mostly raise Freedom Rangers or similar alternatives.  I tried CRX once, and won't raise them again.  The FR's at least don't have near the health problems, they'll actually forage like a real chicken, and if you kept them long enough at least the females could breed (males might get too big, regardless they won't breed true and the off-spring won't have the growth characteristics you want).

I do have to have a (well, several) freezers, but that's OK for me.  I like the idea of just killing one a couple days ahead and eating it fresh, but I also really like being able to fry and grill my chicken, and that would not work out well with birds over 14-16 weeks old.

I have never heard of Bresse! Thank you so much! I will definitely be checking them out. The sound like possibly a good option for us--and certainly fun to try out. We're in the Boise, Idaho metro area so I think it's definitely possible to find people who would be interested in a specialty meat.
Also, I want to try a marbled chicken!

Elena Sparks wrote:Have you looked into Bresse? They are the american take on a really old French breed that was known for marbled meat (like a beef cow) if finished with a diet of grain and milk. Because of the unique taste, they quickly rose in fame and were the preferred chicken meat for royalty. Due to the introduction of faster growing Cornish Cross they largely died out, but are beginning to be brought back by a few devoted breeders. I got two orders from Bresse Farms of white and blue Bresse and have been really pleased with them. As a hatchery they have some order issues, so they send the chicks at weird times and sometimes mess up chicks and send a few of a different breed, but all the extras have preformed beautifully as well so I don't mind. They are strong foragers, great egg layers (they are technically a dual purpose breed), really hardy, and are pretty gentle. They mature at a more normal rate, so that is a possible drawback, but it means you get a niche in the market with a rare and specialized breed. Murray McMurray has some white Bresse available now, and they're another of my favorite hatcheries.
I got them to add to my Wyoming Landrace, so I haven't used them as meat birds, but the roosters we butchered were tasty even though we didn't finish them specially.
I know that the Cornish Cross was created by crossing a Delaware with a white Cornish, and it made them grow super fast. I don't want meat chickens that grow too fast for their body (I think that's poor stewardship as humans that we breed for things like that), but it would be helpful to have them grow a bit faster than an average chicken. From that standpoint, I've wanted to try crossing the Bresse with a Dark Cornish to try and get a similar (though way less intense) result. I don't know if it'd work, but a feel like we need a balance between the crazy out of control Cornish and the slow growing heritage breeds. Keep the foraging instinct, breed in a bit more growth speed, but not too much, and keep the hardiness.

Sounds like a great combination!

Lauren Ritz wrote:I have Mottled Java and Jersey Giant, with a Bielefelder rooster. All large dual purpose breeds which go broody and are good foragers. I am adding Rhode Island Reds and Black Australorp this year to introduce the early maturity and high egg production.

So I have cold hardy, heat hardy, mottled, black, large dual purpose breeds that so far hawks and owls seem to ignore.

I can't say much more than that--my girls just started laying this week. When one of them goes broody I'll make adjustments based on what hatches out.

Hi Kirstine!

Thank you for your post.

I was just telling my mom today that I'm doing my best to hold off on geese until next year so I don't get myself overwhelmed with all the projects! I really want them for the fat. I am considering Pilgrim Geese. Do you have any other suggestions?

We are high desert in Idaho with no irrigation, but I think they would really love some of our irrigation canal seep areas (yes, we are surrounded by canals--just can't use the water. Some wild story about a previous owner pulling a gun on a ditch rider!)
We have also raised turkeys and my mom is going to try to get me some of her Bourbon Red eggs to hatch.

It sure is something of a hassle to set up a meat flock, but since we have plenty of barley sprouts I figured this is good timing. If we are successful, I definitely have friends who would like to get fertile hatching eggs locally.

Kristine Keeney wrote:Or geese. Or turkeys?

Chickens are fine for meat productions but geese graze and can get most of their nutrition that way where chickens aren't as well adapted for it.
Tiny feathered sheep - if you wanted poultry meat production and slow growth with minimal inputs, chicken isn't necessarily the better option.
But, I can come back later and talk about chickens. I love chickens for my main flock, but I also love having geese around.

I would think any of the dual purpose birds, especially the ones that tend more towards size/meat and less towards eggs would be fine for your purposes. If you aren't concerned about purebred lines, and just want to get some birds in the freezer later, any male chicks or hybrids are fine for that purpose, but setting up a landrace or "meat flock" is a bit more of a hassle.