Your best ideas for breeding meat birds...

I'd love your best suggestions for meat chicken breeding stock for my farm. I planned to get Dark Cornish, but there's some kind of mess going on there.
I'll consider any combination of roosters and hens.
Dual purpose are fine, but I really want to focus on the meat output.
I have a large fodder unit for my livestock feed so plenty of cheap feed to keep hens that don't lay a lot fed as long as they can provide enough eggs for hatching each spring. (I have a separate laying flock.)
I appreciate any ideas/stories about your own experiments!

Difficult to answer without knowing your context: Do you want to have chickens which hatch their own eggs, or not? What is the feed you have? How many do you want? For home consumption or for sale?

And, does it have to be chickens, or would muscovy duck also work for you?

Or geese. Or turkeys?

Chickens are fine for meat productions but geese graze and can get most of their nutrition that way where chickens aren't as well adapted for it.
Tiny feathered sheep - if you wanted poultry meat production and slow growth with minimal inputs, chicken isn't necessarily the better option.
But, I can come back later and talk about chickens. I love chickens for my main flock, but I also love having geese around.

I would think any of the dual purpose birds, especially the ones that tend more towards size/meat and less towards eggs would be fine for your purposes. If you aren't concerned about purebred lines, and just want to get some birds in the freezer later, any male chicks or hybrids are fine for that purpose, but setting up a landrace or "meat flock" is a bit more of a hassle.

I have Mottled Java and Jersey Giant, with a Bielefelder rooster. All large dual purpose breeds which go broody and are good foragers. I am adding Rhode Island Reds and Black Australorp this year to introduce the early maturity and high egg production.

So I have cold hardy, heat hardy, mottled, black, large dual purpose breeds that so far hawks and owls seem to ignore.

I can't say much more than that--my girls just started laying this week. When one of them goes broody I'll make adjustments based on what hatches out.

Thank you for these questions!

For this I would probably be mostly focused on collecting the eggs and hatching them so I can coordinate with a processor or plan how many I'll have available to sell live to people who want to process on their own (possible in Idaho where we have plenty of hunters).

I will feed Barley sprouts along with free choice chicken feed. (They'll probably mostly go for the sprouts--that's what our current flock of heritage dual purpose birds are doing.)

We will use somewhere around 400 meat chickens a year with some for personal use and some for sale. My customers are already familiar with heritage vs. Cornish Cross and Freedom Rangers.

Ducks, geese, and turkeys are also options, but we we definitely want to keep chickens in the mix for our customers. (We're also fairly invested in chickens since we sell chicken coop plans and have a related website--so we're basically playing around here.)

I actually have some nice hens and roosters that are crossed with Rhode Island White along with a Slow White Rooster I saved from a batch of Welps chicks along with some of his sons.
I may just breed the best of his sons to some fantastic barred rock hens I got from a local breeder, but I'm interested in any and all ideas out there!

hans muster wrote:Difficult to answer without knowing your context: Do you want to have chickens which hatch their own eggs, or not? What is the feed you have? How many do you want? For home consumption or for sale?

And, does it have to be chickens, or would muscovy duck also work for you?

Hi Kirstine!

Thank you for your post.

I was just telling my mom today that I'm doing my best to hold off on geese until next year so I don't get myself overwhelmed with all the projects! I really want them for the fat. I am considering Pilgrim Geese. Do you have any other suggestions?

We are high desert in Idaho with no irrigation, but I think they would really love some of our irrigation canal seep areas (yes, we are surrounded by canals--just can't use the water. Some wild story about a previous owner pulling a gun on a ditch rider!)
We have also raised turkeys and my mom is going to try to get me some of her Bourbon Red eggs to hatch.

It sure is something of a hassle to set up a meat flock, but since we have plenty of barley sprouts I figured this is good timing. If we are successful, I definitely have friends who would like to get fertile hatching eggs locally.

Kristine Keeney wrote:Or geese. Or turkeys?

Chickens are fine for meat productions but geese graze and can get most of their nutrition that way where chickens aren't as well adapted for it.
Tiny feathered sheep - if you wanted poultry meat production and slow growth with minimal inputs, chicken isn't necessarily the better option.
But, I can come back later and talk about chickens. I love chickens for my main flock, but I also love having geese around.

I would think any of the dual purpose birds, especially the ones that tend more towards size/meat and less towards eggs would be fine for your purposes. If you aren't concerned about purebred lines, and just want to get some birds in the freezer later, any male chicks or hybrids are fine for that purpose, but setting up a landrace or "meat flock" is a bit more of a hassle.

Sounds like a great combination!

Lauren Ritz wrote:I have Mottled Java and Jersey Giant, with a Bielefelder rooster. All large dual purpose breeds which go broody and are good foragers. I am adding Rhode Island Reds and Black Australorp this year to introduce the early maturity and high egg production.

So I have cold hardy, heat hardy, mottled, black, large dual purpose breeds that so far hawks and owls seem to ignore.

I can't say much more than that--my girls just started laying this week. When one of them goes broody I'll make adjustments based on what hatches out.

Teri Capshaw wrote:I was just telling my mom today that I'm doing my best to hold off on geese until next year so I don't get myself overwhelmed with all the projects! I really want them for the fat. I am considering Pilgrim Geese. Do you have any other suggestions?

I have African Geese and really enjoy them as flock guardians. They're a good size and grow very fast. Mine eat a combination of the chicken feed for layers, forage in the fenced yard and graze in the back fenced yard and when I let them out onto the rest of the property for a wander.
I'm hoping to get my hands on some Cotton Patch Geese, or something that's a bit more broody - my one broody goose died a few years back and the current two lay eggs, but don't show any signs of brooding this year.

Pilgrim Geese are a great size for meat birds and are much easier to keep, as well as being auto-sexing (if they're the breed I'm remembering).
Embden are the one most common for meat goose, but they're all pretty tasty. African and Chinese are leaner than the European breeds, so getting a nicer, fatter, carcass is easier with the Embden or Pilgrim.

I haven't butchered one of mine - there's been the accidental attrition you get in a rural area and someone bought a gander from me, but I haven't expanded the flock much. That's a project for later.
I do cook geese. Well, I *did* cook geese, for holidays and such when there was a point to having that much meat on the table.
One thing I've learned over the years of messing with them, though, is that they put on a lot of meat from graze and simple foraging. They aren't as wasteful about things as the chickens, being softer on the environment in general. Chickens do scratch up the countryside given a half chance.

Teri Capshaw wrote:We are high desert in Idaho with no irrigation, but I think they would really love some of our irrigation canal seep areas (yes, we are surrounded by canals--just can't use the water. Some wild story about a previous owner pulling a gun on a ditch rider!)
We have also raised turkeys and my mom is going to try to get me some of her Bourbon Red eggs to hatch.

It sure is something of a hassle to set up a meat flock, but since we have plenty of barley sprouts I figured this is good timing. If we are successful, I definitely have friends who would like to get fertile hatching eggs locally.

It's a hassle to set up any specialized flock that you intend for larger numbers or to be self-sustaining. I would think the cheaper way is to start with a breed or variety you like and build those numbers through careful breeding, and use bulk chicks (the random heritage breeds and such) to serve as your greater numbers. If you start a few extra that you keep back for breeding purposes, and build up through time and experiments, it will serve you long term.
In broad generalities, of course.

Developing your own landrace "breed" or variety of chicken, out of the assorted heritage breeds you're able to track down to fill out your pens this year, would be a great selling point for later years/seasons. You'd, over time, be able to "create" a type of chicken that would do well on forage, pasture, and fodder and would be suited to your weather. It would be a long term goal, though. Not much help for this year, but a plan to set up for next year and so on.

I'm setting up my flock of Dorkings, but only need to please myself, really.  No market for meat birds that I've grown. I sell eggs for feed money and keep the birds because they're fun.
I've seen flocks of geese grown for market. Turkeys, and heritage turkeys especially, probably have a great spot on the "home-grown meat" marketplace and are an easier sale. Geese aren't that common in the American diet, broadscale. Trying to sell goose eggs isn't worth the trouble unless you already know people or are willing to ship.

Basically? My advice is to make a plan for next year. Hopefully the current crush on the market will be lifting by September, when the second major chick market will start up. Since all the newbies are loading up right now, they will, hopefully, be full up with newly producing layers and trying to figure out how to cook the chicks they raised up. If you can reach a hatchery, and the internet is a great resource for that though the quality isn't what it should be from the Big Hatcheries, then you can place an order for hybrids or one of the less popular types for this year - just to get through so you can grow them out.
By trying to keep back enough birds to start up next year's flock (assuming you're able to get things going to please your customers), you'll be ahead of any possible crunch that will be present next spring. It means having to feed the birds through the winter, which isn't ideal, but having ready made layers and/or future flock parents takes some of the pressure off finding chicks.
It's a big trade-off. Convenience of getting chicks shipped to you and not having to feed, or having your own flock to parent the grow-outs and not having to worry about a lack of supply.

Good luck, no matter what you decide to do!

Regarding the hassle factor, there's a reason most commercial meat chicken farms, and even homesteaders, buy chicks. While less independent than raising your own, it lets you specialize in raising them for good meat characteristics, while someone else specializes in breeding a chicken that thrives in the sort of system you use.  

That's not to say you shouldn't breed your own, just that most don't.  

"Meat" birds seem like they belong in factory farming, and not on a homestead. The quick growth leads to health problems and deformities. The inbreeding necessary to maintain breeds exacerbates the health problems.

I choose to raise chicks via broody hens. Yes, it's messy, and hens are unpredictable. They seem more reliable than depending on the current supply chain. Chicks raised by a mother seem gentler, and smarter. They develop better relationships with the flock. They forage better. I really love landrace birds raised by mothers instead of machines.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:"Meat" birds seem like they belong in factory farming, and not on a homestead. The quick growth leads to health problems and deformities. The inbreeding necessary to maintain breeds exacerbates the health problems.

I choose to raise chicks via broody hens. Yes, it's messy, and hens are unpredictable. They seem more reliable than depending on the current supply chain. Chicks raised by a mother seem gentler, and smarter. They develop better relationships with the flock. They forage better. I really love landrace birds raised by mothers instead of machines.

To each their own.  I have 101 Freedom Rangers growing out right now.  I tried hatching my own dual purpose chickens and will likely never do that again.  I like the 10-12 week grow out on the FR's over the 7-8 weeks of CRX, and over the 20-30 weeks for what I hatched myself.  Plus, I have a neighbor that is psychotic about chicken noise, so keeping the cockerels that long was a problem, as was keeping roosters to produce fertile eggs.  The cockerels were scrawny, and tough too.  I bet my feed conversion was 3x worse than that of the FR's.  Better breeds would help I'm sure, but until that neighbor moves, or I do, I won't be doing that again.  Plus, fertilized eggs are a problem.  The yolks become very fragile, and especially in the summer if we don't collect the eggs twice a day they go bad very quickly.  And since we have the hens mostly for the eggs, that's a problem.

Have you looked into Bresse? They are the american take on a really old French breed that was known for marbled meat (like a beef cow) if finished with a diet of grain and milk. Because of the unique taste, they quickly rose in fame and were the preferred chicken meat for royalty. Due to the introduction of faster growing Cornish Cross they largely died out, but are beginning to be brought back by a few devoted breeders. I got two orders from Bresse Farms of white and blue Bresse and have been really pleased with them. As a hatchery they have some order issues, so they send the chicks at weird times and sometimes mess up chicks and send a few of a different breed, but all the extras have preformed beautifully as well so I don't mind. They are strong foragers, great egg layers (they are technically a dual purpose breed), really hardy, and are pretty gentle. They mature at a more normal rate, so that is a possible drawback, but it means you get a niche in the market with a rare and specialized breed. Murray McMurray has some white Bresse available now, and they're another of my favorite hatcheries.
I got them to add to my Wyoming Landrace, so I haven't used them as meat birds, but the roosters we butchered were tasty even though we didn't finish them specially.
I know that the Cornish Cross was created by crossing a Delaware with a white Cornish, and it made them grow super fast. I don't want meat chickens that grow too fast for their body (I think that's poor stewardship as humans that we breed for things like that), but it would be helpful to have them grow a bit faster than an average chicken. From that standpoint, I've wanted to try crossing the Bresse with a Dark Cornish to try and get a similar (though way less intense) result. I don't know if it'd work, but a feel like we need a balance between the crazy out of control Cornish and the slow growing heritage breeds. Keep the foraging instinct, breed in a bit more growth speed, but not too much, and keep the hardiness.

Elena Sparks wrote:Have you looked into Bresse? They are the american take on a really old French breed that was known for marbled meat (like a beef cow) if finished with a diet of grain and milk. Because of the unique taste, they quickly rose in fame and were the preferred chicken meat for royalty. Due to the introduction of faster growing Cornish Cross they largely died out, but are beginning to be brought back by a few devoted breeders. I got two orders from Bresse Farms of white and blue Bresse and have been really pleased with them. As a hatchery they have some order issues, so they send the chicks at weird times and sometimes mess up chicks and send a few of a different breed, but all the extras have preformed beautifully as well so I don't mind. They are strong foragers, great egg layers (they are technically a dual purpose breed), really hardy, and are pretty gentle. They mature at a more normal rate, so that is a possible drawback, but it means you get a niche in the market with a rare and specialized breed. Murray McMurray has some white Bresse available now, and they're another of my favorite hatcheries.
I got them to add to my Wyoming Landrace, so I haven't used them as meat birds, but the roosters we butchered were tasty even though we didn't finish them specially.
I know that the Cornish Cross was created by crossing a Delaware with a white Cornish, and it made them grow super fast. I don't want meat chickens that grow too fast for their body (I think that's poor stewardship as humans that we breed for things like that), but it would be helpful to have them grow a bit faster than an average chicken. From that standpoint, I've wanted to try crossing the Bresse with a Dark Cornish to try and get a similar (though way less intense) result. I don't know if it'd work, but a feel like we need a balance between the crazy out of control Cornish and the slow growing heritage breeds. Keep the foraging instinct, breed in a bit more growth speed, but not too much, and keep the hardiness.

If you were to do the original Cornish Rock cross you wouldn't get the frankenchicken we see in the grocery store.  You'd get something a lot closer to what was sold in stores 50-60 years ago when that breed first became commercially viable.  Rather than a 5-6lb carcass in 7-8 weeks it would probably be more like 12-14 weeks for that same size, and the breast meat wouldn't be as ridiculous.  Probably more breast meat than a "normal" chicken, but still within natural bounds.  The commercial hatcheries have spent the last 50 years or so "improving" that cross, and now have proprietary parent stock that would be nigh unto impossible for an individual to recreate without deep insider knowledge.  Even the Freedom Rangers are all but impossible to really recreate on a homestead.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:If you were to do the original Cornish Rock cross you wouldn't get the frankenchicken we see in the grocery store.  You'd get something a lot closer to what was sold in stores 50-60 years ago when that breed first became commercially viable.  Rather than a 5-6lb carcass in 7-8 weeks it would probably be more like 12-14 weeks for that same size, and the breast meat wouldn't be as ridiculous.  Probably more breast meat than a "normal" chicken, but still within natural bounds.  The commercial hatcheries have spent the last 50 years or so "improving" that cross, and now have proprietary parent stock that would be nigh unto impossible for an individual to recreate without deep insider knowledge.  Even the Freedom Rangers are all but impossible to really recreate on a homestead.

This is something I would raise - the Not-A-Frankenchicken version. I've looked at the various hybrids, but decided against them due to an experience I had over 20 years ago with two Cornish Cross birds that were given to me when they stopped "being cute". One had a heart attack and the other got too heavy to stand on it's own. Never again will I have such birds and I feel for the critters created for this horrible mess. But ... I also support your right to do what you want, so ... ?

A sustainable Cornish Cross, not the current version as produced out of the Big Hatcheries, but a more reasonable bird is something I would consider as a meat bird. You're still talking about about a 4 month period for a grow-out, but the birds wouldn't be the mushy mouth feel you see in commercial chicken or the too fast Frankenbird of the "C-Monsters", to use a well known advocate's term.
But, yeah. I have my own flock of "heritage" meat birds and no reason to raise just for meat purposes. I'll be happy with my small flock of Dorking-on-the-hoof. I've found I don't need a large freezer if thy don't need frozen.

Kristine Keeney wrote:

Andrew Mayflower wrote:If you were to do the original Cornish Rock cross you wouldn't get the frankenchicken we see in the grocery store.  You'd get something a lot closer to what was sold in stores 50-60 years ago when that breed first became commercially viable.  Rather than a 5-6lb carcass in 7-8 weeks it would probably be more like 12-14 weeks for that same size, and the breast meat wouldn't be as ridiculous.  Probably more breast meat than a "normal" chicken, but still within natural bounds.  The commercial hatcheries have spent the last 50 years or so "improving" that cross, and now have proprietary parent stock that would be nigh unto impossible for an individual to recreate without deep insider knowledge.  Even the Freedom Rangers are all but impossible to really recreate on a homestead.

This is something I would raise - the Not-A-Frankenchicken version. I've looked at the various hybrids, but decided against them due to an experience I had over 20 years ago with two Cornish Cross birds that were given to me when they stopped "being cute". One had a heart attack and the other got too heavy to stand on it's own. Never again will I have such birds and I feel for the critters created for this horrible mess. But ... I also support your right to do what you want, so ... ?

A sustainable Cornish Cross, not the current version as produced out of the Big Hatcheries, but a more reasonable bird is something I would consider as a meat bird. You're still talking about about a 4 month period for a grow-out, but the birds wouldn't be the mushy mouth feel you see in commercial chicken or the too fast Frankenbird of the "C-Monsters", to use a well known advocate's term.
But, yeah. I have my own flock of "heritage" meat birds and no reason to raise just for meat purposes. I'll be happy with my small flock of Dorking-on-the-hoof. I've found I don't need a large freezer if thy don't need frozen.

I seem to recall someone (Joel Salatin??) trying to develop  a meat chicken that could be raised by homesteaders.  So it had to "breed true" in addition to having the faster grow out and carcass size needed.  I believe he tried crossing CRX commercial birds with Delaware.  Or maybe it was a heritage Cornish x Delaware.  Basically he was trying to get a reasonably fast growth with (niche) commercially desirable carcass quality, that didn't require artificial insemination to breed.  

IIRC that project was eventually abandoned because all those goals couldn't be met, or least not in an economically viable manner.

That's why folks that are raising commercially still skew very heavily to CRX, and those that don't like raising CRX mostly raise Freedom Rangers or similar alternatives.  I tried CRX once, and won't raise them again.  The FR's at least don't have near the health problems, they'll actually forage like a real chicken, and if you kept them long enough at least the females could breed (males might get too big, regardless they won't breed true and the off-spring won't have the growth characteristics you want).

I do have to have a (well, several) freezers, but that's OK for me.  I like the idea of just killing one a couple days ahead and eating it fresh, but I also really like being able to fry and grill my chicken, and that would not work out well with birds over 14-16 weeks old.

I have never heard of Bresse! Thank you so much! I will definitely be checking them out. The sound like possibly a good option for us--and certainly fun to try out. We're in the Boise, Idaho metro area so I think it's definitely possible to find people who would be interested in a specialty meat.
Also, I want to try a marbled chicken!

Elena Sparks wrote:Have you looked into Bresse? They are the american take on a really old French breed that was known for marbled meat (like a beef cow) if finished with a diet of grain and milk. Because of the unique taste, they quickly rose in fame and were the preferred chicken meat for royalty. Due to the introduction of faster growing Cornish Cross they largely died out, but are beginning to be brought back by a few devoted breeders. I got two orders from Bresse Farms of white and blue Bresse and have been really pleased with them. As a hatchery they have some order issues, so they send the chicks at weird times and sometimes mess up chicks and send a few of a different breed, but all the extras have preformed beautifully as well so I don't mind. They are strong foragers, great egg layers (they are technically a dual purpose breed), really hardy, and are pretty gentle. They mature at a more normal rate, so that is a possible drawback, but it means you get a niche in the market with a rare and specialized breed. Murray McMurray has some white Bresse available now, and they're another of my favorite hatcheries.
I got them to add to my Wyoming Landrace, so I haven't used them as meat birds, but the roosters we butchered were tasty even though we didn't finish them specially.
I know that the Cornish Cross was created by crossing a Delaware with a white Cornish, and it made them grow super fast. I don't want meat chickens that grow too fast for their body (I think that's poor stewardship as humans that we breed for things like that), but it would be helpful to have them grow a bit faster than an average chicken. From that standpoint, I've wanted to try crossing the Bresse with a Dark Cornish to try and get a similar (though way less intense) result. I don't know if it'd work, but a feel like we need a balance between the crazy out of control Cornish and the slow growing heritage breeds. Keep the foraging instinct, breed in a bit more growth speed, but not too much, and keep the hardiness.

I know exactly what you're talking about Andrew. The summer I was 14 years old I raised and--with the help of my mom and brother--processed 500 Cornish Rocks. They were mostly the old style--healthy birds running all over six acres and returning to their coop at night once they got out of the brooder and grew like weeks on a simple diet of COB along with whatever they found.
Then our last batch that summer was a completely different strain. They started having heart attacks at 4 weeks old, we were in a panic and started getting the feed restriction advice.
I've searched for the old type. Welp's slow whites might be close, but not quite right. Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Kristine Keeney wrote:

Andrew Mayflower wrote:If you were to do the original Cornish Rock cross you wouldn't get the frankenchicken we see in the grocery store.  You'd get something a lot closer to what was sold in stores 50-60 years ago when that breed first became commercially viable.  Rather than a 5-6lb carcass in 7-8 weeks it would probably be more like 12-14 weeks for that same size, and the breast meat wouldn't be as ridiculous.  Probably more breast meat than a "normal" chicken, but still within natural bounds.  The commercial hatcheries have spent the last 50 years or so "improving" that cross, and now have proprietary parent stock that would be nigh unto impossible for an individual to recreate without deep insider knowledge.  Even the Freedom Rangers are all but impossible to really recreate on a homestead.

This is something I would raise - the Not-A-Frankenchicken version. I've looked at the various hybrids, but decided against them due to an experience I had over 20 years ago with two Cornish Cross birds that were given to me when they stopped "being cute". One had a heart attack and the other got too heavy to stand on it's own. Never again will I have such birds and I feel for the critters created for this horrible mess. But ... I also support your right to do what you want, so ... ?

A sustainable Cornish Cross, not the current version as produced out of the Big Hatcheries, but a more reasonable bird is something I would consider as a meat bird. You're still talking about about a 4 month period for a grow-out, but the birds wouldn't be the mushy mouth feel you see in commercial chicken or the too fast Frankenbird of the "C-Monsters", to use a well known advocate's term.
But, yeah. I have my own flock of "heritage" meat birds and no reason to raise just for meat purposes. I'll be happy with my small flock of Dorking-on-the-hoof. I've found I don't need a large freezer if thy don't need frozen.

I seem to recall someone (Joel Salatin??) trying to develop  a meat chicken that could be raised by homesteaders.  So it had to "breed true" in addition to having the faster grow out and carcass size needed.  I believe he tried crossing CRX commercial birds with Delaware.  Or maybe it was a heritage Cornish x Delaware.  Basically he was trying to get a reasonably fast growth with (niche) commercially desirable carcass quality, that didn't require artificial insemination to breed.  

IIRC that project was eventually abandoned because all those goals couldn't be met, or least not in an economically viable manner.

That's why folks that are raising commercially still skew very heavily to CRX, and those that don't like raising CRX mostly raise Freedom Rangers or similar alternatives.  I tried CRX once, and won't raise them again.  The FR's at least don't have near the health problems, they'll actually forage like a real chicken, and if you kept them long enough at least the females could breed (males might get too big, regardless they won't breed true and the off-spring won't have the growth characteristics you want).

I do have to have a (well, several) freezers, but that's OK for me.  I like the idea of just killing one a couple days ahead and eating it fresh, but I also really like being able to fry and grill my chicken, and that would not work out well with birds over 14-16 weeks old.

Thank you for all the information.

Have you found Dorkings that are both fertile and strong? I've been interested in them for years, but sat on one waitlist after another and had a friend raising them who had trouble with fertility and weak chicks. She sent me hatching eggs once (along with an other breed's eggs) but none hatched as she feared.

But they are obviously an old breed. I have to hope someone has a solid source!

Kristine Keeney wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:I was just telling my mom today that I'm doing my best to hold off on geese until next year so I don't get myself overwhelmed with all the projects! I really want them for the fat. I am considering Pilgrim Geese. Do you have any other suggestions?

I have African Geese and really enjoy them as flock guardians. They're a good size and grow very fast. Mine eat a combination of the chicken feed for layers, forage in the fenced yard and graze in the back fenced yard and when I let them out onto the rest of the property for a wander.
I'm hoping to get my hands on some Cotton Patch Geese, or something that's a bit more broody - my one broody goose died a few years back and the current two lay eggs, but don't show any signs of brooding this year.

Pilgrim Geese are a great size for meat birds and are much easier to keep, as well as being auto-sexing (if they're the breed I'm remembering).
Embden are the one most common for meat goose, but they're all pretty tasty. African and Chinese are leaner than the European breeds, so getting a nicer, fatter, carcass is easier with the Embden or Pilgrim.

I haven't butchered one of mine - there's been the accidental attrition you get in a rural area and someone bought a gander from me, but I haven't expanded the flock much. That's a project for later.
I do cook geese. Well, I *did* cook geese, for holidays and such when there was a point to having that much meat on the table.
One thing I've learned over the years of messing with them, though, is that they put on a lot of meat from graze and simple foraging. They aren't as wasteful about things as the chickens, being softer on the environment in general. Chickens do scratch up the countryside given a half chance.

Teri Capshaw wrote:We are high desert in Idaho with no irrigation, but I think they would really love some of our irrigation canal seep areas (yes, we are surrounded by canals--just can't use the water. Some wild story about a previous owner pulling a gun on a ditch rider!)
We have also raised turkeys and my mom is going to try to get me some of her Bourbon Red eggs to hatch.

It sure is something of a hassle to set up a meat flock, but since we have plenty of barley sprouts I figured this is good timing. If we are successful, I definitely have friends who would like to get fertile hatching eggs locally.

It's a hassle to set up any specialized flock that you intend for larger numbers or to be self-sustaining. I would think the cheaper way is to start with a breed or variety you like and build those numbers through careful breeding, and use bulk chicks (the random heritage breeds and such) to serve as your greater numbers. If you start a few extra that you keep back for breeding purposes, and build up through time and experiments, it will serve you long term.
In broad generalities, of course.

Developing your own landrace "breed" or variety of chicken, out of the assorted heritage breeds you're able to track down to fill out your pens this year, would be a great selling point for later years/seasons. You'd, over time, be able to "create" a type of chicken that would do well on forage, pasture, and fodder and would be suited to your weather. It would be a long term goal, though. Not much help for this year, but a plan to set up for next year and so on.

I'm setting up my flock of Dorkings, but only need to please myself, really.  No market for meat birds that I've grown. I sell eggs for feed money and keep the birds because they're fun.
I've seen flocks of geese grown for market. Turkeys, and heritage turkeys especially, probably have a great spot on the "home-grown meat" marketplace and are an easier sale. Geese aren't that common in the American diet, broadscale. Trying to sell goose eggs isn't worth the trouble unless you already know people or are willing to ship.

Basically? My advice is to make a plan for next year. Hopefully the current crush on the market will be lifting by September, when the second major chick market will start up. Since all the newbies are loading up right now, they will, hopefully, be full up with newly producing layers and trying to figure out how to cook the chicks they raised up. If you can reach a hatchery, and the internet is a great resource for that though the quality isn't what it should be from the Big Hatcheries, then you can place an order for hybrids or one of the less popular types for this year - just to get through so you can grow them out.
By trying to keep back enough birds to start up next year's flock (assuming you're able to get things going to please your customers), you'll be ahead of any possible crunch that will be present next spring. It means having to feed the birds through the winter, which isn't ideal, but having ready made layers and/or future flock parents takes some of the pressure off finding chicks.
It's a big trade-off. Convenience of getting chicks shipped to you and not having to feed, or having your own flock to parent the grow-outs and not having to worry about a lack of supply.

Good luck, no matter what you decide to do!

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

Sandhill Hatchery has good, "old style" Dorkings.  I was able to get a mix of varieties last year and they are all grown up into beautiful birds.

I found them to be healthier than the Dorkings I got from Murray McMurray, with better survival, better foraging skills, better broody tendencies, and so far are fantastic mothers.
I have a hen in a plastic tote in my spare room right now who is standing guard over her 4 chicks from 6 random eggs I gave her March 8th.

The Murray McMurray ones did have good traits 20 years ago but haven't had "broodiness" in about 10 years aside from the rare atavist. I think in the past 60 birds that have survived past their first winter, I've had 2 Murray McMurray hens go broody. So far this spring, of the 6 Dorking hens that spring to mind from Sandhill, 3 of them have gone broody to the point where I've given them eggs: one left her nest after an egg went bad and got broken (in that order), the Angry Broody in my spare room hatched 4 out of 6, and another hen has 4 eggs under her. Considering it's been two years since I had a broody hen that I knew about (last year, while I was going through some medical shenanigans, a Golden Comet hatched out 5 chicks from a nest that was a complete surprise) and that was sticking to the nest enough to hatch, ... I'm getting more birds from there.

I've liked Dorkings since I got serious about having chickens and searched them out for the long history. I figure the genes are there, carried forward, they just need to be selected for the "right" things.

I'm working with the intention of setting up a foundation flock here. I'd love to have Silver Greys, Light Greys, Blacks, and Rose Combed Colored or Single Comb Colored - beautiful birds all of them, but we'll have to see what The Fates bring in their typical "Take with one hand, Give with the other" style.

If I can get some decent birds going  - right now I'm testing things - we can talk about maybe a swap or something for next year. Or you might get some chicks from Sandhill or one of the small private hatcheries I've found online.
There are flocks of "good" Dorkings out there. It's a matter of finding them and convincing someone to part with chicks. That's tricky right now.

Just including a couple of photos so you can see the birds I'm talking about.
I let Darwinian evolution happen to reduce the numbers of stupid chickens I end up with. I also send mean roos to freezer camp, egg eaters tend to disappear, and we only keep the 'good' smart chickens for passing along their genes.

Your Dorkings are gorgeous. Please do keep me in mind. I'd be happy to wait a year or more to get some from you. It's not something that needs to happen right now.
I've just wanted to get something going for years but haven't committed to it like you did.

I could plan ahead and give them their own pasture with ideal areas for broody hens. We are going to start a small orchard next spring and I plan to add another chicken pasture there while the trees are young and I don't want to have to keep sheep, goats, and cattle away from each tree.

Kristine Keeney wrote:Sandhill Hatchery has good, "old style" Dorkings.  I was able to get a mix of varieties last year and they are all grown up into beautiful birds.

I found them to be healthier than the Dorkings I got from Murray McMurray, with better survival, better foraging skills, better broody tendencies, and so far are fantastic mothers.
I have a hen in a plastic tote in my spare room right now who is standing guard over her 4 chicks from 6 random eggs I gave her March 8th.

The Murray McMurray ones did have good traits 20 years ago but haven't had "broodiness" in about 10 years aside from the rare atavist. I think in the past 60 birds that have survived past their first winter, I've had 2 Murray McMurray hens go broody. So far this spring, of the 6 Dorking hens that spring to mind from Sandhill, 3 of them have gone broody to the point where I've given them eggs: one left her nest after an egg went bad and got broken (in that order), the Angry Broody in my spare room hatched 4 out of 6, and another hen has 4 eggs under her. Considering it's been two years since I had a broody hen that I knew about (last year, while I was going through some medical shenanigans, a Golden Comet hatched out 5 chicks from a nest that was a complete surprise) and that was sticking to the nest enough to hatch, ... I'm getting more birds from there.

I've liked Dorkings since I got serious about having chickens and searched them out for the long history. I figure the genes are there, carried forward, they just need to be selected for the "right" things.

I'm working with the intention of setting up a foundation flock here. I'd love to have Silver Greys, Light Greys, Blacks, and Rose Combed Colored or Single Comb Colored - beautiful birds all of them, but we'll have to see what The Fates bring in their typical "Take with one hand, Give with the other" style.

If I can get some decent birds going  - right now I'm testing things - we can talk about maybe a swap or something for next year. Or you might get some chicks from Sandhill or one of the small private hatcheries I've found online.
There are flocks of "good" Dorkings out there. It's a matter of finding them and convincing someone to part with chicks. That's tricky right now.

Are your freedom rangers fairly consistent in weight? I had 70 last year and some were huge while others were really tiny at 20 weeks. I didn't know if it was a fluke or my supplier or if they're always like that.

It is great chicken. People at our church potlucks make a beeline for the pot after I put it down!

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

Teri Capshaw wrote:Are your freedom rangers fairly consistent in weight? I had 70 last year and some were huge while others were really tiny at 20 weeks. I didn't know if it was a fluke or my supplier or if they're always like that.

It is great chicken. People at our church potlucks make a beeline for the pot after I put it down!

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

You have to be sure to order all males.  If you got a straight run the females will be smaller.  I only order direct from the hatchery.  With all males the size is reasonably consistent.  Obviously some will put on more weight whether due to better genetics or just being more aggressive with feeding.  I’d say 90% are +-0.5lbs from the average.  With occasional outliers on both ends.

I imagine all these meat birds would go great in all my tacos!!!

Haha. That's all that really matters in the end!

Gir The Bot wrote:I imagine all these meat birds would go great in all my tacos!!!

Thank you. That's helpful information.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Are your freedom rangers fairly consistent in weight? I had 70 last year and some were huge while others were really tiny at 20 weeks. I didn't know if it was a fluke or my supplier or if they're always like that.

It is great chicken. People at our church potlucks make a beeline for the pot after I put it down!

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Teri Capshaw wrote:Regaining a strong healthy bird that lives a good life, acts like a normal heritage bird, and just happens to put on plenty of meat is what I'd really like to get closer to having.

That's a Freedom Ranger.  Except you can't breed them on the homestead.  You might see if Red Rangers, or some other "slow" broilers will breed true.  If you find something that grows out in under 15 weeks to a 5lb carcass and breeds true please post back to this thread.

You have to be sure to order all males.  If you got a straight run the females will be smaller.  I only order direct from the hatchery.  With all males the size is reasonably consistent.  Obviously some will put on more weight whether due to better genetics or just being more aggressive with feeding.  I’d say 90% are +-0.5lbs from the average.  With occasional outliers on both ends.

Well I breed meat pigeons. I breed a few purebreds to continually beef up size.

Edit: to answer the question, I have a farmer friend who raises his own meat but also sells live birds of all kinds for local Chinese restaurants.

He says for me at volume in a hurry, nothing beats Lebanese chickens. He said 6-10 weeks from hatching to table, but for flavor nothing beats Cornish.

Well from here, I ramble on about eggshells for calcium, and meat pigeons, my passion in life (hand-in-hamd with gardening and rewilding) si you can skip the rest, but they don't get avian flu!

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I keep pigeons to improve my soil, and being almost, well yes perhaps more than almost, obsessive - compulsive in multi function stacking, they provide meat security for my large Heinz57 livestock dog, and occasional eggs (a productive female cross may lay up to 3x2 to 5x2 eggs per year but mostly 6) and a few lay one egg at a time, so you're going to starve waiting for eggs unless you are stealing them fresh and exhausting your hen.

I provide mine with crushed washed chicken shells, for calcium, as well as oyster shell fortified redstone once the ground has frozen and they can't collect their own digestive stones. That stuff was hard to get during COVID so I keep 18 months ahead on it as it is critical unless you want to start stockpiling small riverbed gravel and drying it out..

To breed meat pigeons, I need to cross regular smart ones with a few pure giant runts, so I can breed crosses which have to be smart enough to evade predators, and swift enough to avoid flying predators if they don't go to ground, as some of them do -- especially ones who have lived a while. The crosses are bred for large breast, health, and brains, relatively speaking. They are free range.

I must keep breeding purebreds meat birds, the largest being Giant Runts. So I have 3 mature breeding purebred females, but one of which is too "market": too stupid. She may never get bred to another pure giant runt.
But I have two new immature giant runts this year, both to become breeding stock. Perhaps 3.

The male pure runts mature in 5-7 months and the females in 7-15 months -- or longer in the case of Poche, my stupid female who could as easily be called Goose, instead of being named after the pocket she spent some time occupying. Her parents were market birds and not too robust.

So the three mature pure race females are getting caged for winter, and rest are free range.

I pair a young purebred virgin male with an experienced hen when going round one. That way I don't waste time and he learns the ropes of bringing nesting material and raising chicks. Sometimes a purebred female will be bred to an experienced purebred male, but occasionally allowed to figure things out on her own like Poche, who is only now producing three-four years later. Her chicks are doing well so I expect she will never be bred to another purebred, because she is not strong stock.

Usually I steal the eggs after one clutch, especially with first time fathers, so they don't exhaust themselves. Sometimes I move their clutch under two different couples I know won't reject a replacement egg for two if their own.

Here in the photo is my best pure male of 2024 in the middle. Not surprisingly, he is the product of both parents born on my property. I have several purebred males, and two females to continue breeding purebreds. They also are from parents bred in house. I will have more breeding pairs from my two young females to be caged for winter, along with two who are still unsexed (if there is one chick it can be hard to tell) but probably a male, and another I have no idea. If I don't cage the purebreds until mid Spring, they stand less than 1/2 a chance against predators because the purebreds are a bit more stupid. But we can't all be Einstein, me included

The beautiful grey wildtype (stripes on the left who is sleeping, is a cross and the type of bird I am raising as a meat bird.

Pigeons don't get avian flu -- they are not poultry and sometimes not regulated.

What a great thread!

I have been without chickens more than 7 years, and plan to start a flock in the spring of 2025.  All this information will help!

And maybe a few geese, based on what I have read here.  I used to keep Guinea fowl as alarm birds and grasshopper eaters, but they have to be protected from freezing nights, of which we have many!

for my money I'd go with straight pure bread big breeds, jersey giant, australorps, black or white giants, all big heavy dense birds.  First batch go straight run,  50/50 chance at 1/2 layers, 1/2  cockrels for meat, well known characteristics, feed conversion, time to lay. separate the roosters out at 10-12 weeks, into the freezer they go. Leave a couple to breed the hens, collect the eggs, into the incubator, and you're rolling

I appreciate how wide of a frame Brahmas have as well as being pretty hardy in cold weather. I believe they used to be the go-to meat chicken in the United States back in the late 1800's to early 1900's. They lay decently as well making them a decent candidate for breed on a small homestead.

My largest chicken is a Beilefelder, who is gorgeous and I like to refer to her as "my little turkey" because she is huge. I'd have to raise a few more to observe how long it takes for them to fill out and make a decision if they would be a good meat candidate in terms of feed conversion to carcass weight.

I loved my Brahma chickens, quite gentle, but they seemed much slower growing than other breeds.

If you have pasture and free range that might not be a consideration.  If you have toddlers, their gentle calm temperament might be an important attribute.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I choose to raise chicks via broody hens. Yes, it's messy, and hens are unpredictable. They seem more reliable than depending on the current supply chain. Chicks raised by a mother seem gentler, and smarter. They develop better relationships with the flock. They forage better. I really love landrace birds raised by mothers instead of machines.

I tried to do this a year and a half ago.  I ordered 10 straight run Old English Game birds from a hatchery along with a few blue slate heritage turkeys to try out.  While they grew in the brooder we enclosed about 3/4 acre inside a 6' high fence that also went down into the ground a foot to deter predators. They end up smaller than most chickens, but I figured they were closer to "wild" so would be more inclined to forage, breed, and raise chicks.  I just wanted to have enough to feed my dogs and cats plus a few for us.  The turkeys are more for us.

Unfortunately I ended up with more males than females, and several of the roosters were killed over time fighting each other.  They grew and all went into the large enclosure.  The turkeys could only escape if they roosted in one of the trees and flew down in the morning in a specific direction, so that worked pretty well.  The game birds could fly out easily, and did so regularly.  They went back for feed and treats, and to roost at night.  When they began laying, I had four hens.  I had hoped they would each find a spot in that "wild" area to nest and hatch, but it didn't work that way.  One stayed in the turkey's area and laid inside the lean-to shelter.  Her eggs ended up disappearing.  One hen flew over the electric fence into my layers' run, and laid her eggs in their coop along with them.  She eventually tried sitting on them but kept getting shooed off the nest by the others so they could lay.  She gave up.  The other two found the "small coop" that was my starter coop and now houses new birds when they outgrow the brooder but are not big enough to integrate with the layer flock.  They both laid eggs there in two corners.  Unfortunately a few of the other hens managed to get in there and shooed them off to add eggs.  I went in to gather the layers' eggs out of the nest leaving only the game bird eggs, but the hens were shooed off too often, and their eggs started to develop but went bad.

My plan for this past spring was to let the game hens lay in the small coop again, but close them in with food and water so the others couldn't mess with them.  But they had other plans.  One hen simply vanished.  I had two game roosters left and they each disappeared with one game hen at different times.  Months later I saw what may have been one pair in a farmer's field about a mile from my place.  One lone hen stayed and hangs out with the layers most nights.  Some times she roosts in a lilac bush (really big one) near the house instead.  She free ranges during the days with the youngest layers who have pecked holes in the electric fence after the solar panel quit working to energize it.  (The older hens stay inside out of habit.)   So my plan for this coming spring, should the little game hen decide to stay with us, is to let her lay in the small coop without interference from the others, if she'll do that.  I'm not sure if she lets my Salmon Faverolle rooster breed her, as she is quick and scampers away when he gets too close.  He definitely breeds the others.  I can always take their eggs and put them under her and see if she'll hatch them.  

But my dream of landrace game birds happily foraging and procreating in their huge "wild" enclosure, that we could harvest as needed for pet food has been dashed.  Oh, and when the turkey hen laid eggs, one game hen would go to her nest when she got up to eat, and very gently roll one egg out of it and across the ground aways.  The turkey seemed to notice it missing when she returned, but never looked for it or retrieved it.  I went out regularly to put the moved eggs back, but no eggs hatched.  Our tom also kept pestering her, trying to mount her while she sat on her eggs, causing her to stand up and walk off to get away from him.  She'd go back to the nest, but I think her eggs just didn't stay warm enough with all the distractions.  Makes me wonder how these birds in the wild even survive!  Next spring I'll try to separate her from the tom once she starts setting.   Or maybe I'll just buy an incubator large enough for turkey eggs.  I've seen them online.  

I have to say, I know first hand how the term "bird brain" originated...

There are certainly challenges to establishing a self reliand and self sustaining population of chickens!  As outlined in the above post.

I won’t say I ever achieved that, but after a few generations, I did manage to get hens setting, hatching and raising chicks.  I did cull the birds based on the behaviors that I just couldn’t adjust my system to.

I really think culling hatchery birds when you can’t get adapted birds from a friend’s is going to take a few generations. Patience and creativity are required!

Thekla McDaniels wrote:There are certainly challenges to establishing a self reliant and self sustaining population of chickens!  As outlined in the above post.

There is a reason that put my broodies in what I refer to as "Protective Custody". If anyone is going to try to raise chicks with a broody hen, consider the way they evolved. A broody would sneak off in the bushes and make a hidden nest, with or without the protection of a rooster. The problem is that in the wild, few would make it. This is what the term, "a sitting duck" refers to - the risk of something finding and eating the eggs or the duck while they're trying to incubate.

So I encourage people to make sure they've got suitable infrastructure in advance. I've set chickens and ducks in Dog Exercise fencing with a roof, in a raised 3 1/2ft by 4 ft area we call "The Attic", in a dog crate, and in our meat bird brooder. To me the setting is actually the easy part as the chickens need feed and water, and don't need much space. What gets tricky is when the babies hatch - now they need space to run, fresh food to forage, and to move regularly so the manure load doesn't get high. We use portable "chicken tractors" for that, until they're large enough to be safe for free ranging or joining a bigger flock.

A friend of mine was by the ocean when she saw a pair of eagles tag-teaming a mother duck with a line of 8 ducklings. The eagles took 1 at a time until every duckling was gone. Nature is not nice to baby animals. If humans want them to grow for their own use, they have to consider that and find a way that works in their ecosystem. And I suggest you have Plans A, B and C, because as Donna Lynn wrote, birds have opinions and plans of their own!

Jay Angler wrote: Nature is not nice to baby animals. If humans want them to grow for their own use, they have to consider that and find a way that works in their ecosystem. And I suggest you have Plans A, B and C, because as Donna Lynn wrote, birds have opinions and plans of their own!

Ain’t it the truth Jay!

I just had one chicken house for all the chickens. I picked up every egg every day.  What I did when a hen began to be broody— which if she doesn’t show the bare broody patch, she’s not as broody as she believes and isn’t really ready to spend 3 weeks on a clutch of eggs— but when I agreed that she was broody, I would give her a dizen eggs.  I marked her eggs with acrylic paint because the other birds would get in on top of her and lay eggs…. And I had to remove those eggs.  A truly broody hen would allow me to lift her off the nest and remove the new eggs.

When they hatched, and I usually got 75% hatching, that is when the advantages of hen raised chicks really became clear.  The mama hen would bring the chicks into the general population.  The mama hen would decide when the chicks were old enough to forage outside the house, first in the run and then into the field.

I did have eagles and owls overhead, and pet cats.  I had a perimeter fence around my 2 acres which kept my LGD in.  I don’t know if that helped with chicken survival.  At one point I had a fox getting inside my perimeter through a secret hole, but he was picking off the adult birds, and eventually I got him excluded or dead.  I had lots of cover for the chickens.

I figured out how to select parents for eggs to be hatched… that would have been a separate enclosure for hens and roosters I wanted to propagate, but I never did anything to put that plan into play.  I was getting satisfying results through general culling of the flock.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:I just had one chicken house for all the chickens. I picked up every egg every day.  What I did when a hen began to be broody— which if she doesn’t show the bare broody patch, she’s not as broody as she believes and isn’t really ready to spend 3 weeks on a clutch of eggs— but when I agreed that she was broody, I would give her a dizen eggs.  I marked her eggs with acrylic paint because the other birds would get in on top of her and lay eggs…. And I had to remove those eggs.  A truly broody hen would allow me to lift her off the nest and remove the new eggs.

When they hatched, and I usually got 75% hatching, that is when the advantages of hen raised chicks really became clear.  The mama hen would bring the chicks into the general population.  The mama hen would decide when the chicks were old enough to forage outside the house, first in the run and then into the field.

Marking the original nest of eggs. What a concept. ~smacks my head~ This one tip alone probably would have saved a lot of my chicks, ducklings, AND eggs for eating - not to mention work and stress load - over the last few years! THANK YOU,  Thekla!!

One thing about marking the eggs:  lots of things don’t work… get worn off.  I settled for acrylic house paint.  There is that air compartment at one end of the egg.  I think the chick requires that for air exchange, and I never could be as sure as I wanted to be, which end it was in.  I painted a stripe around the equator 😊!  I thought the acrylic paint might block the air exchange at one of the ends

Thekla McDaniels wrote:One thing about marking the eggs:  lots of things don’t work… get worn off.

Very true! Neither Black sharpies nor grease pencils will survive long enough. Making the mark around the equator is an excellent approach, so you can see the developing eggs quickly regardless of their orientation.

I wouldn't have thought of acrylic house paint! I would have worried about toxicity, but clearly you've had good results, so it must be adequately safe!