Jay Angler

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since Sep 12, 2012
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I live on a small acreage near the ocean and amidst tall cedars, fir and other trees.
I'm a female "Jay" - just to avoid confusion.
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Recent posts by Jay Angler

Tereza Okava wrote:... "overpopulation" (as I grew up worrying about) is not the Big Scary Problem we thought it would be in the 70s.


Personally, I wish that some of the approaches being taken in some countries in the last 3 decades had started 6 decades ago, as I think we might not have dug quite as deep a hole as it sometimes feels we have. That said, women around the world figured out long ago that fewer mouths to feed equals a better quality of life, and anywhere they've been empowered to reduce their birthrate, they've done so dramatically. Average of 11 children dropped to 7, then those children grew up to aim for fewer yet.

The old adage, "just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you *should*. Just because we can more or less feed the number of humans currently alive, doesn't mean we aren't destroying topsoil and poisoning streams to do it. The more we get permaculture values out there in all the many flavors, the sooner we start building topsoil and cleaning waterways as in Tereza's example.

Thinking in terms of ecology, the world will be okay. Maybe not the same, but it is always changing anyway. The world adapts. I agree with Jay- the world is resilient. People are resilient. Life finds a way. I'm glad to be part of it.


The planet has rebounded from mass extinctions in the past, but I believe it does have tipping points that may be largely incompatible with human life. It is believed that at one point in human evolution, we were reduced to a very small population (thoughts are large asteroid creating a cold/dark period, but also possibly a super volcano, but I'm not sure my sources are accurate). Personally, I'd like things not to get that dire.

I want this thread to focus on solutions: How can we get through the pain?  How can we as individuals be more resilient? How can we as communities, be more resilient? How can we create *meaningful* work, that at least provides people with enough cash to keep a roof over their head, while actually making things that people *really* need? How can we do *all* of that in an environmentally sound way?

To me, many things world wide seem to be heading in scary directions. I'd really like to see some good ideas that would help me see less scary, or not scary, or even better, joyful ways we can head towards. Examples, however small, that show better ways to solve some of these problems.
8 hours ago
Fall is a *great* time to be improving your soil as you are thinking about cover-cropping your beds or building new beds for next spring.

So I admit, I just want to bump this epic list of good soil care threads!

Thanks again, Dr. RedHawk!
13 hours ago

G Freden wrote:I sometimes wish I had not brought my children into this world that seems to be collapsing.

You are not alone, G. I didn't cover that specifically as I see it as connected to our ever extending population and lifestyle which has been encouraged and sometimes almost forced upon us. Poor city and urban planning that forces people to drive instead of using active transportation would be an example (and down-play the number of deaths it causes. Deaths due to car accidents dropped considerably in areas that had Covid lock-downs and work-from-home mandates.)

It does worry me. Do I encourage my son and daughter-in-law to make me a grandchild or two? Is that a "kind" or "moral" thing to do? Am I rationalizing it? I would love to have a grandchild, so I look at our fruit trees and our big enough piece of land and figure if any young couple is going to give the next generation a fighting chance, we're it?
13 hours ago
All of a sudden, after years of people freaking out about Earth's expanding human population, there are pundits/researchers/organizations suddenly acting very concerned that humans in some geographical areas are not replacing themselves, and somehow they are implying that us regular people should be concerned too.

As someone who grew up reading about the 1 child policy in China, and being told that responsible people didn't have more than 2 children, I feel a little like, "duh - what did they expect would happen?"

I have watched a few videos on the subject, and I admit that as a permie who raises Muscovy ducks (who adore having babies), I'd like to raise some points that often aren't made clear.

1. We really *do* live on a finite planet. At some point, we *have* to stop exponentially increasing the number of humans if we want those humans to have any sort of quality of life.

2. We unfortunately, currently in North America and much of the developed world, and maybe even much of the undeveloped world, have an economic system that thrives on expansion. Thus a very big point made is that if we don't start making more people, our economy will collapse. Anybody who hasn't read about Gert yet, I suggest you take a detour and realize that if our economy tanks, the best way to survive that is to have a wonderful life like Gert's.  ( https://permies.com/t/gert )

3. Personally, my opinion is that the current economy favors the wealthy, and the middle class and poor are effectively scraping up the crumbs. Unfortunately, I don't have a magical better economic model, because most of the approaches seem to involve the wealthy sharing much more of the pie with everyone else and they don't much like any suggestion like that and they're the ones in power.

4. That leads me right back to Gert and wanting to generate many more ways that average people can decide that being Gert is better than chasing the next promotion. But what would some retired lady know about that? I do have a son who has definitely figured out that having a "good job" that's riding distance from where he lives, is a much better approach, than keeping up with the Joneses.

5. However, one point the experts are clear about, and right about, is that the transition will be painful. We used to have an expanding population supporting a shrinking number of senior citizens. Somewhere I recall reading that about 70 years ago, the average time a male lived post retirement was less than 4 years. Health care has expanded that. My in-laws and mother lived to 90. That's a *long* time to be receiving pensions - multiples longer than 4 years. Now we have a decreasing population supporting a growing senior population and quite frankly, the only way I think there's any hope of that working out is to massively change our North American expectations where everyone has their own home, their own car, their own everything. But we have entire generations who grew up doing that. The farm kids I met rarely, used to share beds with their siblings like my mom did. But as a kid from the urban 60's, we all had our own beds. Simple things like that are an example of problems we need to overcome to get through this.

6. Some of those "experts" seem to believe that if human population crashes, it will never recover. I think that's scare mongering. Let me use the example of the tent caterpillar. It goes along gradually increasing in numbers until, boom, it has a huge population explosion. Then along comes this tiny parasitic wasp who lays eggs in those caterpillars and the next spring, there are very few caterpillars. Human population recovered from the Black Plague. Humans who survived it, generally grew up with a better quality of life than those who lived before it. I believe in human resilience, and I believe we can get through this. (Probably not me personally, as this will take time I likely don't have, but I believe I will have grandchildren and that they will survive.)

7. We are the humans currently alive, and any that we create in the next 2 decades, are going to have to live through this experience, and it is going to be tough, and there are going to be winners and losers. To me, what we need people doing is working hard at finding solutions that will help us have a softer landing, rather than people pushing the status quo. I think permaculture is a huge part of that solution.  All the things we encourage here on permies, particularly reducing the toxic gick in our lives and on our planet, are things we can do in our everyday life. Some are dead simple - make a clothesline or a clothes rack so you don't need to use a dryer. Some are more complicated - could someone please invent a way to clean up PFAS and similar forever chemicals that may be a big part of the low fertility in many humans that would have children except they can't.

Permaculture - the problem is the solution - let's do it!
This subject came up elsewhere recently. They had a checklist of all the things that would need to happen just right to allow anything more than microbial life to evolve.

One possible point was to suggest that the odds of another intelligent species evolving elsewhere in the universe at the same time as humans remain a species here on earth, is really very low, so we don't need to worry about them invading us.

Another possible point was to imply that maybe humans need to take better care of the planet we've got because realistically, we don't have a lifeboat!
1 day ago

John F Dean wrote:... I find myself agreeing with Theresa,  it is amazing the level of generosity and involvement we have as a group….especially for a group of recluses.


I wonder if people who are naturally observant are attracted to permaculture? Many of these situations come down to first noticing there's a problem?

Decades and decades ago, my family  went camping to a Provincial Campground with long term friends of my parents. They had a son my age who had brought a friend.  We were hanging around when I noticed a young girl had gone by our spot for a third time and was looking increasingly upset. I declared to the boys that she was lost. They looked at me like I had 3 heads and it wasn't our business.

Permies as a group also seem to be problem solvers... certainly I am. I looked at the boys and used my "do as I say" voice - get on your bikes and "go around the campground asking if anyone's lost a little girl." In the meantime. I convinced the little girl on her 4th time past to stay with me and let the boys find her people.

I made sure the boys got all the credit for finding the lost family!  
1 day ago
This is a toughy - I think I need one of those 'houses in a greenhouse' although I don't know how they don't bake in the summer!

I'm not that good at caring for the house plants I have, so I suspect I will have to go for none at all out of attrition even if I gave the every room option a chance.
1 day ago

Phil Stevens wrote: That biggest beaver dam in the world is real, though. I think it has been photographed from space.


Yes, that's in a rather inaccessible part of an already minimally accessible Canadian National Park - Wood Buffalo.
I've seen photos and it is totally amazing.

I concur that without trees and water already accessible, the beavers will move on if not die. There are people making "beaver analogue dams" that are really effective at starting the repair process on streams that have been damaged by the lack of Beaver People maintaining them.

There used to be huge marshy area in much of the northern countries in North America and Europe, but they were usually drained for farmland. Hopefully we can go back to more like the chinampas system or similar as a way of maintaining the usefulness of marshland, but still be able to grow crops.
1 day ago
What did the police officer do when he saw a dog giving birth on the side of the road?

He gave her a ticket for littering.
2 days ago
Hopefully the early results will prove to continue to protect these people indefinitely!

The comment about the cost of managing the disease would be huge is valid. Expensive as the gene therapy is, the cost to families without the treatment is daunting.
2 days ago