Elena Sparks

Nina Surya wrote:Thank you all for your helpful messages!
It took this conversation here to convince myself that the gorgeous but misbehaving ram isn't worth the trouble.
I contacted the local sheep farmer and asked him for help. His helper was happy to have my ramming ram, they came to fetch him just a short hour ago.
The ewes are a bit shook after their protector has gone, but luckily they still have eachother and, soon-ish, their lambs.
I'm SO relieved, the farmer was super kind and helpful and his helper shone with joy - everybody happy, except, at this moment, the sheep.

A quick follow-up question that I didn't have the chance (nor the language skills) to ask the farmer: am I being stupid if I'm friendly with the ewes?
I now know better and will not be too friendly with possible male lambs.

Absolutely be friendly with the ewes!!! We make it a point to spend a lot of time sitting out with the ewes and lambs. The more comfortable they are with you, the more they trust you, and the easier it is to manage them and work with them. As far as rams go, the earlier you can start training them in respectfulness, the better. Never pet or rub the tops of their heads, always their chins and reward any sort of aggressive testing behavior (pushing against your leg or hand, swinging their head at you, etc., etc.) with some time being held on their backs having a good behavior lecture.
We've found that the more time we've spent with the lambs the calmer and more friendly they will be as adults with people in general. That means that when it comes time to sell some, they will travel with less stress and adapt to their new environments more easily. Just less stress all around. The lambs do seem to go through a stand offish phase at about 6 months. No worries, they'll come back for loves after a while.

Bonnie Johnson wrote:I do not have sheep. I have goats.  I have watched videos of adult Rams killing people.  These were large rams, over 200 lbs, but I am pretty sure even a smaller ram could injure some one pretty badly.  That being said, when ever I have a buck goat even look at me crosswise (like he might even slightly be entertaining going after me) I get either an old wooden handle or a good heavy piece of PVC pipe and when he does it, I whack him right on the end of the nose as hard as I can.  I don't hit their forehead or horns, this encourages them to head butt.  Usually one strike on the nose is all it takes. They hate it.  They will cry and run and shake their head.  Their nose is very tender.  I have big bucks, one that is almost 200 lbs, one that is slightly over 200 lbs and one that is well over 200 lbs. They also have huge horns as they are mature Kiko bucks.  I won't keep a buck that continues to try to come after me as it is too dangerous.   However, if you are hesitant to get rid of this ram and I can understand why, you can try hitting him in the nose.

Now, while my bucks don't come after me, they do a lot of damage head butting things. They nearly destroyed their shelter last year. They ruined the fence separating them from the does, again. They head butted down the walls of the does winter shelter and head butted one of the hay feeders into pieces. They then head butted one of those big round wooden spools until it was a bunch of splinters.  I am contemplating trying these Ram Shields for when they go into rut.  I have not tried them yet. But perhaps they might work for you.  Or perhaps you might be able to make one yourself that would work.  

https://www.premier1supplies.com/p/ram-shields?cat_id=4

good luck!  

We've tried the ram shields. Didn't really work for us. What does work is raising respectful, gentle rams in general and then reintroducing them to each other after breeding season in a crush pen so that no one can back up far enough to do damage.

Hey! Firstly, The Ouessants are actually part of the same group (Northern Short Tailed Sheep) as ours. We have Icelandics and Shetlands. I didn't know that until I looked them up, but that's kinda cool!
One thing you've gotta understand about rams is that they can become really bored, so they actually really need somebody else to ram with. When we sell starter flocks we like to send rams with a wether specifically for that reason. When they have another boy to ram with, they are less likely to become aggressive towards you or the ewes.
As far as managing an aggressive ram, you have to cut that behavior ASAP. When he runs at you, grab his horns and flip him on his back. Being stuck on their backs is a submissive position because they are completely defenseless. Once he's down, hold him there for a minute or two (give him a long talking to, discuss his behavior, whatever you'd like, lol) and then let him back up again. Flip him every time he rams you, lowers his head aggressively, whacks you with his horns, etc. Basically any sort of aggressive posturing at all! Do NOT run away or act submissive to him. There is absolutely no reason to tolerate an aggressive ram. If he doesn't stop ramming you, you should retire him, not sell him. An aggressive ram is a no no, no matter how awesome he is. I don't know about rams behavior in the Ouessants in general, but in Icelandics and Shetlands, gentle rams are the norm. If we ever get one who is aggressive towards people at all outside of breeding season (or in breeding season outside of a breeding pen) who doesn't chill out with some tough-on-their-back conversations, he goes to the freeezer!!!

We have Shetlands with our Icelandics (not as big as Jacobs but they're bigger than Shetlands) and they do fine. A lot depends on the temperament of your larger sheep. If they tend to be aggressive, it's probably not a good idea. Even if they are gentle, you'll go through an introductory period, but they'll adjust fine. I would get two or three though, not just one. It's always easier to introduce multiples, even within the same breed.
The hardest ones to introduce are rams to other rams. Ewes are generally pretty simple, and a single ram to a group of ewes is also fairly easy (as a general rule).

Tori Escobar wrote: Elena, thank you so much for your response. You have touched on things that I have been questioning recently. Firstly, I do have a decent shelter for them but I think I will go ahead and shore up the open side once it starts getting chilly.
We’re in southern Oklahoma so it’s barely become fall now.
I am definitely on the side of low input, stalwart and economical animals versus loads of milk. That may change at some point but I’d love to breed the Nubians with a meat breed (Boar) and then select offspring for those traits.
The goats have been doing a pretty good job clearing paddocks and staying in their electric netting surprisingly well. I will say it requires intentionally and more work managing in this rotational manner but I am really pleased with the results already.
I think the hard part is learning to determine if they’re ready to move or if they are being picky. I’ve noticed that they know when something really tasty is in the offing and then refuse to eat the less desirable things. With that in mind, I have allowed them to stay in paddocks longer than before and made them smaller.
I’m getting nervous about winter though because it’s like they will not touch any hay I put in their stall. I’ve tried three different times from local farmers. Any thoughts on hay for the winter?
I check their FAMACHA score every so often and they are looking very good.
When I got them one of the goats under lid was like white. Now it’s very pink so I’m pleased about that. I haven’t wormed them yet but I have some herbal wormer on hand from Mollys herbs.
One of the girls doesn’t like to be touched which concerns me, should I force her to get used to it?

Thanks again for your input! So helpful!!

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help out.
As far as crossing them, that's what we're doing (as I mentioned), and I've really liked the results so far. The only thing I would say is to look at all the options before settling on Boars. I've never raised them, but I've heard that they can have some foot problems. We went with Spanish as the winter hardy part of the cross, and the nice thing about them is that they bring a very nice, thick coat, but are also pretty nice dairy animals. Good luck with your cross, let me know how it goes!
Rotational grazing definitely takes more work, but the results, as you said, are way better! Gauging when they're done is definitely the fine tuning part that takes a while to get the hang of. The general rule (which you probably already know) is eat a third, leave a third, and trample a third. Sometimes that means that the pasture looks like it has quite a bit left, and you're tempted to leave them on longer then you should. Ideally, they should never stay in one place for more then a week, so I'd size their paddocks so that they are done with the respective 1/3rds within that amount of time. It sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of working towards that, so good job!
For hay, I'd wait to give them any until they actually need it. If you were given the option of a fresh pancake or a two-week old pancake to have with your breakfast, I'm pretty sure you'd pick the fresh one. The same is true of the goats. The hay isn't tasty to them until it has more nutrients then the living pasture. So if they're on lush and green pasture, they won't eat the hay. If it's bad hay then that's its own problem, but I wouldn't evaluate your hay on whether or not they're eating it right now when they don't want it anyways.
We use herbal dewormers as well (ours are from Land of Havilah) and have had pretty good success. What I'd suggest is to make sure you're sticking to a routine with it. Herbal dewormers are more for preventative care then emergency dosing, so use it regularly. I'm glad her eye is getting better! Whatever you're doing is working, so that's great!
When we get new animals, we lock them in a jug (small pen) for a week or two so that we can work closely with them multiple times a day. Give them treats by hand, spend time with them, and let them know that you're a good thing to hang out with. Once they're coming up to you consistently and easily, let them out in a bigger pen. Remember, though, that each animal is different. Give them the same treatment and some will be lap dogs within a week, and others will just come up for treats. It's ok for them to be different.  Mostly you just want them to not be afraid of you.

Not sure how useful this response will be, seeing as I'm so late in responding, but I figured I'd pitch in anyways.
My first question would be where are you located? Your location, and the climate there, impacts a lot of those questions. If you get pretty cold in the winter, you'll either need a well build shelter (not heated, just secure and highly wind resistant), or more goats. You should definitely have some sort of shelter, and the more well built the better, but the more goats you have the less you need to worry about them in the cold. Goats stay warm by piling together much like penguins do, and so the more you have the warmer they will be.
As far as inputs go, I would give them a salt and mineral block, but I wouldn't give them much else until they're being milked. Obviously you should give them hay during the winter when they can't forage. Once they're being milked, a lot depends on how MUCH milk you want. We're moving more towards a cross now, since Nubians don't handle the extreme cold here very well, but I do have several years of experience with Nubians, as well as Spanish and Nigerians. If you want lots and lots of milk, feed them alfalfa and give them lots of treats during milking. If you'd rather not supplement heavily, then you won't get as much. I prefer sturdier animals and low inputs to super high production (personal preference, I won't blame you if you choose something different). Because of that, I only feed them grain/alfalfa during milking time. They only get as much as they can eat while on the stand. I'll supplement them with some alfalfa during the end of their gestation when we're coming out of winter, but other then that they only get hay when they're in the barn, and pasture when they're out with the rest of the flock. My neighbor, on the other hand, only feeds them alfalfa. No hay. Her Nigerians and mine produce WAY different amounts. High input means high output, lower input means lower output.

Denise Cares wrote:

Lif Strand wrote: I know nothing about goats, so let me ask this dumb question. Smoky has big horns in all the photos, even as a lamb. So  how long does it take for horns to grow from birth on, and does the growth rate stay the same throughout a goat's life?

Elena, Smoky is a beautiful ram! Especially those horns add to the regal look!

Lif, let me chime in here...a ram and a goat are two different species altho both are ruminant animals. Male Sheep and either male or female goats can have horns. However, they are two separate species with different characteristics and uses. Elena's animals are sheep, not goats...and since I was not well versed on horns for either species I looked it up. I think Elena's sheep are a Merino breed and have those beautiful curved horns (I was reading her post about rooing which is another fascinating topic). Come to find out that some male sheep breeds like Jacob's sheep can re-grow from 2 to 6 horns yearly!  Their look is most startling! I had never seen a picture of this much less in real life. Wow!  On the other hand, goats (which both the males & females may or may not have horns) and rams loose their horns yearly and regrow them every year. It is another fascinating topic to read up on. So much to learn from the study of animals! Rams' horns get bigger every year for the purpose of defending their herd of ewes and establishing dominance. Here's where I read about rams horns: https://www.berrypatchfarms.net/do-rams-shed-their-horns/.  Goats and their horns are a bit more complicated and I read a little about that here: https://rurallivingtoday.com/livestock/goat-horns/.  There are many descriptions in Scripture about sheep and goats and so learning about this one aspect helps me to understand the meaning & intent of holy writ also.  Great topic and pics on this forum!

Firstly, thank you! He is a pretty awesome looking ram. Ours don't shed, and I've never heard of any non deer/antelope shedding their horns, but I'm by no means an expert. Jacobs sheep are definitely bizarre looking. Our goats have grown horns fairly similarly to our sheep as far as timing goes, but as you saw with the sheep, different breeds grow their horns differently than others. Our Spanish grow much bigger and more impressive horns than our Nubians ever have, and the Nigerians seem to be somewhere in the middle. We actually have Icelandics, not merinos. Merinos are a fleece breed and they are mostly white. Icelandics are a much rarer breed, so not as many people know about them, but only a small percent are white, and they are a tri-purpose breed. Interestingly enough, they come in both horned and polled. We have horned and polled lines (you can check them out on our website if you want to see some examples) and the genetics can be pretty complicated sometimes.
Lif, I'm so sorry I didn't reply sooner! This spring has been hard and busy, so I'm behind on everything. Needless to say, here we go: Some horns are weird, but the average horned ram lamb is born with probably an inch of growth already. By the end of the first year, they look a lot like the picture of Smoky as a "lamb." The growth after that depends largely on the individual, but they tend to be almost into the return spiral by the end of their second year, and they're mostly grown (whatever that means for the individual ram) by the time they're four or five. They keep growing after that, just REALLY slowly. They grow the fastest during their first year, and then gradually slow down.

Jasmine Mind wrote:Hi Kelley,

This wasn't your question, but I wouldn't graze sheep with goats unless you have really serious fencing, which is hard to do rotationally.
Goats - as you may have heard - are escape artists. Also they need a lot of browse (shrubs, trees) so they won't do as well on pasture as sheep will.

Goats are wonderful but they're tricky. The only way we can rotate our goats through different areas is to tether them to one spot, and that can be tricky because you have to make sure that they don't get caught or choked by the tether. Even so, they often break free and go for our nearest fruit sapling!

We run our goats and sheep together with our cows, alpacas and LGDs and they do just fine with our Premier1 Poultry netting. Our sheep actually cause more problems than the goats do, lol! They like to eat weedy stuff and trees, but overall they do just fine on the same pasture as all of our other animals.

I've been taking lots of pictures to update our website, and with lambing season there's a whole new assortment of pictures to take! Lambs are one of my favorite things to photograph, and I think I've been getting better at composition. What do you think?

I'm sorry!! It's always terrible when that happens. I haven't lost large numbers of chickens to predators, but I have had an owl, fox, and racoon come in on occasion. And yes, they always manage to find your best/close to the heart hens. I definitely know how it is with those old hens. I have a number of old hens from my initial crosses, and an old rooster (somewhere around 8 now, I think), that get to stay here till they die of old age.
As far as protection goes, either change the fencing, or look into a guardian dog or goose. Electric netting would probably work pretty well to keep predators out... my issue has always been keeping the chickens in. Granted, if you have larger and less flighty breeds, then it would probably work for you. Premier 1 has lots of different options, and Allibaba has quite a few as well. Ours are from Premier one ($120+), but Alibaba's are less expensive ($100+/-). I obviously can't speak for the quality of Alibabas fences, but you can always try them.
You could also think about running poly-wire around the perimeter of your current coop. I don't know if it would keep the dogs out indefinitely, but it might at least slow them down. The more lines you run, the more effective the protection. If your current coop keeps the chickens in, then you could just run 3 or 4 polywire lines at break-in level on the outside of the run. One more suggestion would be to make safe places in the coop itself that a dogs couldn't get to. I free range my poultry, which means they don't have protection beyond the LGDs and geese, but the chicken and duck houses have a cattle panel gate inside the normal door so that only they can get in. I did it mostly so that the dogs and geese wouldn't eat the eggs (yes, my geese are terrible about eating eggs), but it should also work for keeping larger predators out. The coop is their safe place, and they tend to run there when they feel threatened.
If you live in the city, LGDs wouldn't be an option (as well as being crazy expensive), but they are incredibly effective. Geese are also an option, although I don't know how well they'd handle a rogue dog. My geese are top of the pecking order, even bossing the guard dogs around.
You could also think about looking into different breeds of chickens that are more flighty and better at avoiding predators. If you look at hatcheries, they tend to say whether or not the breed is known for being predator savvy.
Whatever you do, make sure that you change something before buying chicks.

This is on a totally different topic, but do you have any un-refridgerated eggs left from your 6 year old hens? If I were you, I'd try to incubate those. Longevity in laying hens is pretty hard to come by (something I'm selecting for in my flock, along with other things).