Andre Wiederkehr

Phil Stevens wrote: I replaced the top with a piece of heavy steel plate so I'd have a better cooking surface and because that part of the drum was spalling after a few years of use.

How did you do that? Weld it in? How thick is the plate? I haven't built a RMH (yet!), but as I consider it I've wondered about whether the top would wear through from the intense heat, and also how to make it an effective cookstove, so this is of great interest to me.

Nancy Reading wrote:
You can see from the undergrowth behind that the grass is normally still green, if not growing overwinter, yet the angelica canopy succeeded in shading it out.

That's pretty cool! I will tuck the idea away to try.

Jay Angler wrote:I would look up the standards for land management for organic gardeners.  An old gardening book I have talks about adding 2 inches of quality compost to every bed each year to maintain fertility. I have *no* idea how that fellow managed to get that much compost without importing from outside the garden.

This is a very important topic to me, and the source of my "local nutrients" value.
I've read the same recommendation recently in Charles Dowding's book Compost . I don't have it by me, but I think the recommendation was to start a garden with a 6-8" layer of compost (imagine the wealth!) and then 2" every subsequent year. I think if you do this, you must end up importing from outside the garden.

John Seymour, from The New Self-Sufficient Gardener wrote:
...no-diggers do use an awful lot of compost. In fact, they put so much on their soil that it is almost pure compost. All the no-diggers I know bring in organic material, in large quantities, from outside their property, because no matter what crops they grow, they cannot obtain enough organic material from their own lands to make the necessary compost....
I am not decrying these practices; I think they are marvelous. All gardeners should be constantly on the lookout for organic material and seize it whenever they can. But obviously not every gardener in the world can do it; and you can be sure that if one plot of land is using this technique, it is robbing another plot of land that is either being doused with chemicals or left unproductive.

I have actually seen a few cases of no-till gardeners not importing  from off "their own lands," but as far as I could see, they were probably still depleting the source land, so his point stands. I'm not interested in human concepts of property ownership nearly as much as ecological health.

Importation from outside the garden is okay with me as long as it comes into a fairly healthy equilibrium eventually - basically, that the land it's coming from is not becoming continuously less fertile over time. My fairly basic understanding is this can happen in two ways: either you rotate where you're gardening around the whole area you work with (e.g. compost materials come from 1/2 of the plot of land and are applied to the other 1/2, and every few years you move where that 1/2 over to the other side) or you are taking them from an ecosystem that contains enough critters that are good at 1) producing enough bonus organic matter that you can take some and still leave more than they started the season with and 2) breaking mineral constituents of soil down into nutrient forms available to plants at least as fast as you're taking away minerals.
The former is only practical transport-wise if the areas are pretty near each other. I'm wary of the latter option, because it seems a lot of people assume the source ecosystem can cope with what you're taking away without really knowing that it can. And it might take a while to see if you're doing damage. This is why I'm pretty committed to not importing material from land others are managing to feed the soil I'm working with. And that's where these systems usually run into trouble, because it seems like it's just pretty hard for most people to gather that much material without importing.

Jay Angler wrote:I recall Joel Salatin had a chart in one of his books that mentioned how much of each vital nutrient leaves the farm every time you sell produce or meat off the farm. This leads me to remind you to check out the forum about humanure and responsible use of urine!  I'm pretty sure part of the issue is that some nutrients are harder for plants to access than others. Once you prepare land, the more minimal the tillage, the more mushrooms you can encourage, the more plants will have access to mycorrhizae and microbes to play that important role.

Yup, I love using humanure/urine compost on gardens for this very reason! Cycle the nutrients back to where we received them from (or uphill/upstream/upwind from there...), like many other animals do (perhaps in a less calculating way). I've used Joe Jenkins' methods for doing this in the past, although I'd like to keep exploring if that exact system makes the most sense for me.

I've actually done a calculation of this potential for nutrient loss for the example of maize (using standard nutritional data, which again might not represent the nutrient content of one's particular variety).
So, for example, in the past Arkhipov Dent has yielded 26.3 cups in a bed (which, including the paths, is ~122sqft). This comes to 63 bushels/acre (not that I've ever grown anything near an acre of corn). That's a very poor yield by conventional monoculture standards, but I'm okay with that. I choose to not use all the tricks they do to bump up yield.
The nutrients in this hypothetical harvest would be:

nutrient	lb/ton dry matter maize	lb/acre
C	795	1220
N	24	36.8
P(P2O5)	12	18.4
K(K2O)	8	12.3
Ca	2	3.1
Mg	2	3.1
S	2	3.1

So, if I were to grow an acre of this corn and send it away from the land, the soil would be losing 1200lbs of carbon, 37lbs of nitrogen and 40lbs of mineral nutrients. This is why I don't want to sell food!

If others are entertained by such calculations, I put the table in my spreadsheet at the bottom of the "crop chart" page, so you can sub in your own yield data or that of a conventional field of corn (might be 100-200 bu/ac).

Jay Angler wrote:I would be careful in the short term (until you get more nuts planted) that you do have enough and the right kind of fats planned for harvest. There are "essential" fats, just like essential vitamins. Some of the research I did a long time ago, suggested the fat side of the equation was a much bigger issuer than the protein side.

I've tried to read about this in the past and gotten kind of bogged down in debates about not only getting enough of essential fatty acids, but also the right ratio between omega-3 and omega-6. I think I might be okay, between soybeans, poppy seeds, squash seeds (I eat them from any species, with more less processing depending on the thickness of hull) and black walnuts. As a byproduct of fibre-flax growing, I find I get relatively little seed beyond what I need to replant the next time. I'm reluctant to try to maintain both a fibre flax and a seed flax variety. But maybe I should try to grow more flax seed, as it is higher in omega-3 and would pull the ratio that way a bit along with the walnuts.
Anyone know some pretty straightforward sources on how to get this essential fatty acid amount and balance about right? Maybe I need to add another section to my spreadsheet....

Thanks, Nancy.

Yes, I think your suggestion of a bit at a time is a good one. Spreading the soil preparation over a couple of months will certainly be key for this season.

I agree that it'd be preferably to work farther ahead, either trying to prepare the whole area for next year or, even better, nibbling away at adding area over several years.

At the end of the day, if I can't come up with something I feel great about for this year, I'm okay with somewhat sub-optimal methods (including some tillage) based on the thinking that otherwise this year I'll be eating food someone else grew in a way that I feel less good about than what I can manage. I get that for some people, similar reasoning would lead them to buy stuff in rather than till. This is where I'm at.

I do appreciate your suggestions for ways to add no-till garden area gradually, for when I have opportunities to work farther ahead in future years. So while I'd welcome more thoughts on what to do for this year, I'd like to add that as a focus of this thread:

What are ways to prepare garden space more gradually (either a smaller section each year, or in a process that takes several years), but still within all the above assumptions?

On your specific suggestions:

Can you tell me more about your work with Angelica? Which species, how do you establish it, how densely, how do you remove it the next season, and some idea of how much it suppresses sod and weeds?

Do you know of ways to make wood chips (in quantity - say, enough to mulch 500 sqft) without fossil fuels or electricity? Will Bonsall is/was a fan of this "forest-source fertility" in a similar context of veganic, relatively whole-diet gardening, but in the book I read by him, he doesn't address this issue of how to make them.

If I don't want to import materials, is there an advantage to lasagna-style application of materials vs. using the same materials to make compost and mulching with that, Charles Dowding-style? Do you think either of these has an advantage over deep mulching with hay, leaves, or straw?

You're right, I'm not a fan of plastic mulch because of the systems needed to produce it and the waste problem afterwards. From what little I know of the biodegradable ones, I'm not convinced they address either issue. If people want to use it in a salvage context, I don't see that it does any additional damage, but it's not what I'm working toward. I am trying to embody a way of living that doesn't depend on salvage from systems that I want to see changed. It's too bad, because it clearly is handy stuff, and some people claim that it actually increases soil microbiome health by some measures (according to this meta-study, "plastic mulch increases microbial α-diversity, abundance, and functionality, while decreasing β-diversity").

Thanks for engaging, Anne!

Anne Miller wrote:When do you plan to start planting this 1/4 acre?

This spring.
Peas and favas are usually early to mid-April. Oilseed poppies toward the end of the month. Assorted greens can go in pretty early.
A lot more planting through May and about to 2/3 of the way through June.

Anne Miller wrote:
If not soon, why not find some organic straw to use to smother the grass?

I am think square bales to cover the area then when you are ready to plant, just plant right into the bales?

There are a few reasons I don't want to do this, which all come out of my guidelines for how I want to live/work (described in the first post):

Transport - moving enough straw to deep-mulch a quarter acre from someone else's land to mine would be a big job doing it with human labour instead of machines

Importing nutrients - I think the land the straw came from probably wants it back. That's a lot of organic matter to be taking away. And a fair bit of potassium.

System coherence - I'm trying to build a system that covers a full diet. In other words, I want to be a gardener who is also the grain farmer. I plan to grow some small grain, but the quantity I eat will not provide nearly enough straw to do mulch this way. So a world of farmers like me could not supply this quantity of straw. If I understand the method, I think I'd also need a bunch of nitrogen to grow in the bales? I don't want my systems of gardening to require others to do large-scale mechanized animal farming or monoculture fields of grain to provide me with materials.

Hopefully this example helps make those ideas a bit more concrete.

One way I might kind of use this idea longer-term is to slowly move the garden through the hay field by adding a narrow strip with deep mulch on one edge and planting the other edge back to grass, so as to give the soil some rest time out of annuals.

This year I'll be working on whole-diet gardening again. My current plan is for about 1/4 acre, which I estimate might produce a scant 800k kcal, plus lots of less calorically-dense veggies which are also important for well-being.

it still seems to me that it'll be a pile of work! If you have suggestions for how to make it easier, please head over to my planning thread and share them.

I am working on my garden plan for this year, and would welcome friendly feedback on parts of my plan I could improve to make the work easier and/or care for my local landscape better.

Assumptions and goals:

Since about 2019 I've been on a journey toward growing a complete diet using:

renewable energy in the form of human labour and biofuels - as opposed to fossil fuels or electricity; preferably not using animal traction either

tools that can be built and maintained locally using non-industrial technologies

local nutrients - not importing fertilizers or organic matter from off this patch of land land (the local complexity is using hay mulch from the land beside the garden, a practice I want to keep modifying so I can be confident in the long-tern health of that soil)

genetics that can be maintained locally - seed and other propagules

For me, aiming for a complete diet means, breadth, quantity, and length. Breadth: enough variety in all the "food groups" for my health, resilience against specific crop failures, and culinary interest. Quantity: sufficient volume of food to support my body in the work I ask of it (not obtaining other food to supplement). To the point of "enough," for now I'm imagining a 1:1 worker to eater ratio, although I'd like to become more efficient to the point that its practical and not drudgerous for one person to support several. Length: this breadth and quantity spread over the full year, with no seasons of deficiency.

This means techniques have to be efficient so I can grow enough and have time and energy left over to do everything else in my life. I don't have a paid job, but do have plenty of other things to do. And I like to rest sometimes!

I've come a long way on this journey already and have a long way to go.

Specifics of my context:

My focus for now is on an annual garden, soft fruits like currants and raspberries, and apples and black walnuts (since they're already established and bearing). And oyster mushrooms, sun-dried for vitamin D. Those tree crops are significant, but still less than 10% of my total food, so this post is focused on the garden, since that's where the vast majority of my food comes from for now.
I've worked with others on planting a lot more fruit and nut trees; hopefully in years to come they will be a significant food source which could displace some (most?) of the annuals.
I am leaning away from including animals in my agriculture, although I may do some hunting for small game like groundhogs and rabbits that eat my crops.*

I lean toward foods that are easy to store under the above assumptions, since more than half the year I'm mostly eating stored food. This means passive storage (grains, pulses, squash, aliums), root cellaring (roots/tubers/kohlrabi), lacto-fermented veggies (can just go in the root cellar), and drying (over the woodstove, in the sun, or maybe a solar dehydrator). I want to avoid canning and freezing since they use technologies that I'd rather avoid and are energy-intensive.

The land I'm working on is in SW Ontario, Canada. Edge of zone 4/5. Frost around the end of May and end of September, give or take a few weeks. Usually plenty of rain; patterns are shifting, so I can't tell you when for sure.
I took last year away from gardening, so I don't have an established garden spot. There's a mix of soil types around, but I'm hoping to garden on a patch that's loamish with stones. Well-drained. Okay organic matter. It's flat enough that I'm really worried about following contour or terracing. Currently hay field with a mix of grasses, alfalfa, and clover.

Here's my garden plan so far for this year.
In the map tab, each cell represents a bed 3'x25'. In theory there's an 18" path between each bed. Beds are grouped into blocks of four beds side-by-side, which I call a block. A lot of staple crops like dry peas or amaranth are just planted right across the block, not really leaving paths. This covers more soil and increases yield for crops that don't need to be accessed much between planting and harvest.
Th colours represent rotation slots. The idea is that each row of colour moves up one slot (and the top row goes to the bottom) each year. (And the split part in yellow/green flips back and forth so each bit of garden sees both).
Areas are based on a couple years of data on yields in these conditions (or worse), and my estimate of my dietary preferences and needs for all these foods. See the crop chart tab. I'm pretty sure it's a varied enough diet to cover all the vitamins, except perhaps B12. I'm using standard dietary data (mostly USDA) to calculate if I'm roughly on the right track in terms of enough calories and protein (see the staple comparisons tab). With my current plan, both are a little low for my estimation of needs (late-20s male, 165lbs, quite active). But I haven't put in data for a lot of the vegetables and fruits and any small game I hunt, and these estimates are probably conservative anyhow, so I think it's about right. I realize that many people believe good gardening practices make more nutrient-dense food. Could be. In that case, hopefully I'll have plenty. If it's not enough, I can increase scale a bit in future years.

Question #1:
How to convert the hay field into garden?
I'm looking at about 1/4 acre. Remember, I don't want to import a tonne of compost or cardboard or anything else. I can use mulch, but only as much as I can practically cut with a scythe. I can flip sod with a shovel, but as I recall from other years it's about 6 hours/block (=144 hours), and I don't like that much tillage if it can be avoided anyhow.
My best idea for now is discouraging the sod with a combination of eye-hoe and stirrup wheelhoe - basically shallow tillage. Then plant, and mulch what I can as the season progresses. Still more tillage than I'd prefer. Other ideas?
Based on a few others years in this spot, if I keep after the weeds and mulching, this soil seems to be pretty manageable with relatively little tillage the year after breaking sod.

Question #2:
What opportunities do you see for intercropping?
I haven't done a whole lot of intercropping in the past. Things which I know have work for me that I want to do again are:

dry beans on dry corn (low yield, but it's a bonus)

dry beans on amaranth

dry peas on dry favas (maybe, sometimes)

basil under tomatoes

Looking at what I hope to grow and the constraints of my rotation, what other intercrops could I do? I want suggestions with some evidence that they are beneficial (your experience or someone else's documentation).

Question #3:
What opportunities do you see for cover cropping? Remember, I want to be able to produce any cover crop seed myself. I prefer cover crops that don't compete with my food supply if possible. For example, if I use rye or buckwheat and don't harvest it, that's basically more food I need to grow. Whereas extra radish seed doesn't "cost" too much to grow.

Question #4:
Do you have ideas for rearranging my layout that you think would be beneficial? Or are you curious why I'm putting things where I am?

Question #5:
Are there other crops that I'm not planning to grow that you really like growing and eating and would recommend?

*Non-ruminants tend to eat enough human-quality food that it doesn't seem worthwhile to keep them. I'm not interested in importing feed. Exceptions I haven't explored that I'm curious about are rabbits, insect larvae, and fish. I'd welcome links to resources on how to raise these within the assumptions described above.
Ruminants certainly have a potential role in filling a niche in the landscape different from humans and providing many benefits. I've worked with goats and cattle, and have helped others a bit with sheep. I have experience with butchering, milking and dairy processing, and a bit of experience with making hay by hand for winter feed. The work is fine, but it's not my preferred way to live if I don't have to. Gardening foods to take the role of staples from animals seems easier and more flexible overall to me at this point. I'm still wondering about fibre for clothing, particularly winter, though.

Phil Stevens wrote:That stainless barrel has got me drooling...they are not easy to find over here.

I doubt it would be cheap, but in Ontario, Canada, and probably east and south of here, bigger maple syrup operations use them for shipping syrup. Perhaps occasionally they have a discard for some reason.

This is neat!

About how much does this mass weigh?
What is the size of the house (square footage and height)?
How is it insulated?

Sara - Somehow I missed seeing your post in time. I'm sorry! I did in fact go through Western Mass, and I would definitely have been interested in your work, especially the hybrid chestnut plantings. I've been planting a lot of nut trees the last few years and it would have been neat to learn from your approach. I'm back in Ontario for now, but I'll keep you in mind in case I'm ever over your way again.
Do you have sources to recommend on the topic of nut tree guilds?