somewhere I read that cattails might be an answer to the flooding along the Mississippi (might have been Mark Shepard). If the banks and flood plains were planted with cattails, they would absorb the excess water and nutrients and create biomass that could be cut in the dry season and used for making compost.

Thank you Marco. I agree, it is better to help people feel they can do something, and start where they are, than to beat them up because they can't do it all. Anything we can grow ourselves is a bit less that needs to come from industrial agriculture.

The way I see it,  whatever I can grow myself, or rescue from a landfill, etc, is a step to help improve one bit of earth. For example, I gladly take other people's leaves and pumpkin vines, etc, to make a compost pile, rather than see them tossed in the trash. Maybe eventually those others will decide to make their own compost, but meanwhile it is helping my highly degraded piece of high desert to become more fertile so I can grow a bit more of my own food.

Oops. I was reading through quickly and didn't even see the second page discussion. Sounds like you've already considered a lot of that.

I suggest you check out Mark Shepards book (and videos on youtube) about restoration Agriculture. He says the place to start is to lay out contour lines, keyline swales and berms etc,  to manage any water that falls or runs onto your land. Also watch Geoff Lawton's greening the desert video. I watch it over and over for inspiration. If they can do it in Jordan, surely I can do it too, with the right species and techniques.

I have learned on my high desert area, with about 10-12 inches of precipitation per year, that most of the rain seems to come in a few large bursts, and is very dry in between. Evaporation much exceeds precipitation. Snow in winter tends to evaporate rather than melt. But I have seen water sheeting down my slightly sloped driveway area in a heavy cloudburst, so I am in process of laying out small ditches to collect some of that moisture into collection areas, and building swales and berms that are mulched and planted with hardy conservation trees and shrubs that might have a chance to survive my intense summer sun and frigid winters.

I use chickens in small movable pens (a modified chicken tractor) to build sheet compost beds, and haul in woodchips to cover all my garden beds--any other kind of mulch blows away in the intense gusts of wind we get quite frequently. My land is on the edge of a small town, so I do have piped in water, which has helped me establish a garden and young windbreak/ food hedge.

Something I have learned while living in this high desert, is that if so-called grasslands in arid areas are not grazed or mowed, the bunch grasses actually start to die, choked out by the top growth. On my small parcel of land, the grass clumps put out tall growth in the early summer. By Mid to late July the green all turns to yellow in the intense sun. If we go through and mow it, when the rains come again in autumn the plants put out new green growth. But where we don't get it mowed, the plants die back more each year. Here in this arid country we don't get natural biological decay without adding a lot of water and effort. I have built compost piles that sat for a whole year and when I dug into them, the plant matter looked just like when I put it in. Organic matter that just lays on the surface just dries up, oxidizes, and blows away.  Grazing actually makes sense here to manage the heavy growth and help create more fertile soil.

Tyler, thanks for those links. Some great references. I like what Geoff said, It's not about all being perfect tomorrow...It's about getting enough people with intention to start moving in that direction--just start to make that move. He is doing a lot with his online videos and courses to educate people as to the need, and how to start. There are many online articles and videos now. And we can help spread that info and build on it, sharing our experiences of what works where we live, as the techniques and species are different for everyone, according to climate and desired results. What grows in Texas or Florida may not grow in Colorado, for example. People helping people is how we can make this transition.

As all of us do what we can to do something, whether growing some of our own food, or setting up solar or wind or water power, or swales for water catchment, or greywater systems, or whatever, and talking about it with our friends etc, we are helping to move toward that tipping point.

The author of the article in question said something about having to use big ag to feed the world. Mark Shepard pointed out in his book, Restoration Agriculture, that the massive corn fields in his area are not really "feeding the world" because corn is not a complete food, and a lot of it doesn't even feed people anyway. To feed the world, we have to set aside space to grow other foods that provide the nutrients we need--it's not just about calories. A book I read recently about the great potato famine pointed out that corn almost killed the peasants in Ireland, because it was not a complete food. And has been pointed out above, big ag uses and loses more calories that it can provide in food. So if we are growing fruits and veggies and herbs etc that are higher in nutrients, we are doing our part to feed the world, one mouthful at a time.

Someone above said, permaculture doesn't work here. I understand the feeling. Many of the techniques and methods I have seen seem to be effective only in warm, humid climates, but the principles work. I just need to learn how to implement them here. So keep sharing ideas and species for various regions so we can help each other. For example, when I lived in Northern Maine, I had to be careful with mulches because it kept the soil too cool. Here in the high desert, I've learned that the more mulch I put down, the better my garden works at holding onto the moisture I put down. Yes, I still have to water my garden once a week--but that is a lot better than the daily watering I see others doing, so I am moving in the right direction, I hope.

I am gradually seeing topsoil developing on my very marginal plot of land, which is almost pure sand and had no topsoil when I started this journey. My small garden patches are islands of green in a sea of yellow desert, and are increasing in diversity, with large numbers of beneficial insects and birds swarming over the clovers and yarrow and wild sunflowers, etc, and food is growing where before was only a patch of cheatgrass and weeds.

Paul Gautche (back to Eden) did use woodchips in both his orchard and in his vegetable garden; however, it was only in the more recent videos of his garden that he started planting a few crops like Kale under a tree, to protect them from the winter frost.

My understanding of a forest garden, is that perennials are planted in layers, using shade tolerant plants in the understory. A lot depends on your climate. In a cool and cloudy area, there would have to be fewer trees, farther apart, if the understory plants are expected to be productive. But in a sunny clime, more shade is helpful for some protection from the hot sun. Many of our common garden vegetables need or prefer full sun, so don't do well under a tree, yet in places with hot summers, tree cover or shade of some sort is needed to get cool season crops to flourish.

Most of the permaculture resources I have studied suggest a food forest as only a part of a design, which may well include a separate vegetable garden. For example, a u-shaped food forest with a vegetable garden in the open center. In my 1/8 acre yard, I have a small food forest with apple and plum trees, Nanking cherries and Siberian Pea shrub, gooseberries and currants, rhubarb and perennial onions and various herbs, flowers, and self-sown greens (some people call them weeds) and more. Because I live in a place with long, cold winters, I also have about 400 square feet of framed vegetable beds, each of which can be fitted with a mini hoop house or cold frame top during the colder part of the year. I don't think there is anything here not in keeping with the ethics or principles of PC. It may not provide all the veggies and fruit etc we can eat, but it sure provides more than just a lawn would give for the same effort.

Jack, thanks for those ideas. I will look into it more and see what we can come up with. Yes, we, my son and I, discussed the idea that maybe we don't have to be too picky on contour. I have not really seen any runoff on my land. I did once see some puddles, when I happened to be out there during a heavy rain, but the water usually soaks in almost immediately.

I have actually built several hugel beds, as close to contour as possible, in my zone 1 area, and have noticed that even though the raised beds do dry out and need to be watered more often, they help to direct the wind up and away from my planting beds on the terrace between the berms. But that takes a lot of wood and other organic matter for each one, so I have been considering trying to extend those berm lines into the outer zones, with swales that I might be able to get someone with a machine to help with.

I have tried using a water level, and also an A-frame level, but each time I try I get different results. Part of the problem is that I don't have a nice even turf.  My land is high desert. Each plant tends to be 2 to 3 feet apart, and the bare sand in between the clumps has blown or washed away, so I am dealing with a lot of humps and dips and can't get an even line. Anybody have any ideas for how to work around that?

My land has such a very gradual slope, it took me several years to even see that there was a slope. It is only about 6 feet -rough guess- in vertical difference between the highest point and the lowest point (on a 2 acre property).  I want to do some contour swales, but can't figure out the contours.

Very interesting discussion, much food for thought. Unfortunately, in CO, and in Utah, I have been told, it is illegal to catch rainwater or use greywater. And it would be very hard here to find enough native crops to make a meal. A friend has shown us some weeds and bushes that might contribute salty seeds to season a stew, and I know there are serviceberries and Pinyon pines at higher elevations, but those are mostly now inside the National Monument, and off-limits to harvest.

At my location, the only"natives" I know about are things like sagebrush and rabbitbrush and a few kinds of wildflowers. We have patches of prickly pears, but they only grow about 4-5 inches high, are very thorny, and have never fruited, though I have seen a few flowers in a wetter than normal year. And of course, the deer, and pronghorns, and elk, and rabbits and voles and mice and sparrows, none of which we could live off of, either because of limited numbers and hunting laws, or they are too tiny to be worth the effort to catch and clean them. But the small ones sure make it a challenge to grow anything, especially the sparrows, which fly around this small town in a huge flock, wiping out anything they can find. I tried covercropping, and they just kept eating all the seeds before they could sprout.

I am learning to love the high desert, and see beauty in the landscape, the beautiful sunrises and sunsets, etc, but it is a challenge to learn what is adapted and how to grow anything we can eat.

My "advice" is: keep trying. Try all the ideas that seem remotely possible, and keep adding organic matter and planting anything that might survive in your climate and soil. Observe what others have growing, and keep learning.

For example, I have seen, in nearby yards, wild roses, rhubarb, cherry and apple and apricot trees, Nanking cherries, sumac, strawberries and raspberries, lilacs, and clovers. I have added a few others, like Siberian pea shrub, and bush cherries, and Egyptian walking onions. By combining these and similar hardy plants, I have been able to create a Mini-food-forest in my yard that is starting to fill in and provide some shade and wind protection, leaves for mulch, and even some food. But it takes time to observe and study and prepare the ground, and get plants established, etc. And, it takes a lot of space, and mulch, and compost, etc, to really be able to grow more than just enough food for occasional snacks or seasoning.

I have also learned, from Caleb Warnock, author of Backyard Winter Gardening, to use low framed beds (using 2x4s or 2x6 boards) with cold frame covers, to grow food outside my growing season, which is barely 90-100 days from killing frost in June to 1st frost in Sep. So, I know if I want to eat all year, I have to use a combination of methods.

But the most important piece of advice is Never Give Up. Even when it is hard, if we keep learning, we can help ourselves and others around us if times get even harder.

As in all things Permaculture, much depends on climate, soil conditions, and other factors; each garden, and each gardener, has different challenges and limitations.

Here in my high desert location in Colorado, I have been trying lots of different methods I've learned about in books or youtube, or here at permies, etc.

I too have a very harsh climate: short growing season (about 3 months), hot summer days with cool nights, long frigid winters that can be -20 F. or below, warm spells in late winter followed by more cold, so blossoms freeze, harsh winds over the surrounding desert, very dry air that sucks moisture out of the ground almost as soon as any rain falls, snow that evaporates rather than melting into the ground, etc.

I have a 2 acre plot with very sandy soil--actually has no top soil at all, when I dig a hole it is the same pale brown sand all the way down. But the sand actually compacts below the surface, so when we dug out several sunken woody beds, we actually had to use a pick to break up the soil. Then we discovered by accident that if we dig right after a rain, the compaction disappears, so now if we want to dig, we run a sprinkler for awhile first.

Anyway, what I have done here, is to dig out sunken beds--actually removing the sand, about 2 feet deep, in wide beds, and lining the bottom with cardboard to slow down water loss, then filling the bed with woody debris, branches broken in storms, old rotten firewood and lumber, etc, with leaves, straw, hay, compost, or whatever other organic matter I can collect, as a top layer. The beds are working, but I have to keep adding organic matter on top, because a lot of my mulch and compost etc disappears into the sticks below, or just blows away.

Last year we were able to bring in several loads of woodchips in my small pickup, which we spread on paths around my garden, which help immensely to keep sand from blowing into the beds.

I did plant a windbreak, putting in gogi berries along the west side of the property 2 years ago, and more conservation shrubs last year; the little shrubs have survived, and are now 2-4 feet tall, and starting to fill in. I collected rocks to mulch around the bushes, and laid down woodchips around that, to help keep the shrubs from drying out so fast, and they seem to be thriving. I even got to pick a handful of berries this year. But everything grows very slowly in this climate.

I also have built a couple of low hugelbeds: branches on the ground, on contour lines, with smaller brush I break up into pieces that are 6" to 2' long, on top, to make piles about 2 feet high and 3 to 6 feet wide. I cover that with clay soil, compost, hay, and other organic matter, until I have it thick enough to make a planting bed. A lot of the material falls or washes into the spaces between the sticks, but I managed to get enough to stick that I was able to grow a nice cover crop of buckwheat and white clover this summer, and my beds were covered with volunteer wild sunflowers, and volunteer wild amaranth. Now, with the recent frosts, all those plants are gone, and I have been adding compost and manure and wood chips, to continue building up the soil on the beds.

I do have to water all these beds (including a wood-chip covered Back 2 Eden bed I put in last year), but not as often as those who do "regular, flat-land" gardens, which is sometimes 2 or 3 times a day in this dry climate and harsh, high-elevation sun. Most of the time, I only need to water my beds and hedgerows, etc, once or twice a week, with the deep mulches I have been using.

This fall I added a new B2E bed, with a deep sheet mulch over newspaper, covered with a layer of woodchips, and also a "ruth Stout"type, deep hay mulch garden over the residues from a small corn patch, to see how they will do next summer, and am also extending my windbreak hedge. So I keep adding and trying new ideas, to see what will work in this high desert garden.

Thought I'd add an update.

Last year, 2013, I started digging a contour swale with a hugelberm on the downhill side. [Our property is actually almost flat, with a very slight slope.] It was "only" about 10 feet long, with the berm about 2 feet high. This spring we laid out a longer swale line continuing our previous swale. A friend carved a rough swale and terrace with his machine, and I have been working on it off and on as I have time. Because we have very sandy soil, with zero topsoil or organic matter, I built a series of compost piles along the terrace to build soil. Then I have been breaking up sticks and branches from a storm that brought down a lot of the local Siberian Elm and Cottonwood branches last fall, to form a 2-foot high hugel-berm, and covering it with leaves that were under the piles of branches, then a layer of clay and topsoil from another garden project. Finally, I sow cover crops like buckwheat, to hold the soil and build topsoil. Right now the swale and berm are about 40 feet long.

The "old" section of the berm has been planted this spring with some perennials like comfrey, topset onions, rhubarb, sorrel, etc, and seems to be doing well, and only needs watered 2 or 3 times a week, instead of daily, as some of my friends say they have to water their gardens.

I also extended the small hugelbed at my home garden, to about 15 feet long and 3-4 feet high, and it is thriving, with only weekly or twice weekly watering, once the plants get established. So I am pleased to report that the hugelbed idea does seem to work even in a dry climate, but it does require water to establish.

I am hoping that when (if?) we get some decent rain this fall, or heavy snow in the winter, that the swale and the woody berm will be able to catch and hold the moisture longer into the spring, and eventually be able to support trees and shrubs without a lot of additional irrigation.

I have noticed that in some of my sunken woody beds, the straw and other OM has either blown away in the wind or fallen through the cracks of the wood, so there is really no soil to speak of. I am planning to build compost piles on top of those beds, to make the soil deeper, and hope that will take care of the problem.

Hope you are all having a great summer (or winter, for those on the other side of the planet).

Mark, thanks for bringing this back up. It is good to review ideas. As I read back over all these thoughts, including my own from a year ago, I realize that I am seeing things a lot more this time around. I still haven't done the swales etc that I talked about, but I have spent a lot of time observing, both on the 2 acres I have stewardship over, and the surrounding landscapes, and am seeing patterns more and more all the time. So I hope that by the time I actually am able to start the "doing" part I will know better how to accomplish those things that will be most beneficial and adaptible, so I don't mess things up worse than they are now. It is a very degraded piece of high desert, and yet looks quite lush and green here compared with videos about Jordan or parts of Texas. So I am encouraged and eager to learn how to work with this little piece of land, how to care for the earth while also caring for people.

I love this discussion. Especially pertinent, in my opinion, was in another post, about a U.N. document from 2010. I don't usually think too highly of the UN, but this caught my attention. Somewhat hard to read, it essentially said that we can never feed the expected world population in 2050 unless we switch to something they called "agroecology." In other words, a system using perennial plants, more organic matter in the soil, reduced chemical pesticides and fertilizers, connected multi-species cropping, combined crop and livestock systems, small farms close to where people live, etc. Sounds like permaculture to me.

The news release stated that "scientific evidence demonstrates that agroecological methods outperform the use of chemical fertilizers in boosting food production where the hungry live--especially in unfavorable environments." It also cited a doubling of crop yields, or increase of 80% or 116% in some areas. "Chemical farming relies on expensive inputs, fuels climate change and is not resilient to climatic shocks. It simply is not the best choice anymore today." ... "We won't solve hunger and stop climate change with industrial farming on large plantations. The solution lies in supporting small-scale farmers' knowledge and experimentation, ...." The article also "...urges states to support small-scale farmer's organizations, which demonstrated a great ability to disseminate the best agroecological practices among their members.....small scale farmers and scientists can creat innovative practices when they partner..."

So, if anyone questions what you are doing, tell them you are following the UN suggestions to boost food production.

The Farmers Handbook, written by a group in Nepal, and free on the internet (I can't find it right now--it was discussed on another forum, I think in the chicken forum) has 5 sections talking about how farmers in Nepal were able to use permaculture methods to improve the health, nutrition, and income for the farmers and their families. Of course, their idea of a farm is definitely not our monocrop monstrosities--more like a homestead with "fields" that are like a series of large garden beds, and lots of intercropping.

So, after all the discussions and concerns about permaculture feeding one person, I believe permaculture is the only thing that will feed the world, in the long run, as well as in the short run. We could all die of malnutrition if we depend on our monocropped conventional fields of corn to feed us. So, as I said back in August or so, I believe it is essential for each of us to grow whatever will work in our yards, patios, balconies, etc, depending on our climate and space limitations, of the nutrition we need in the form of fruits, nuts, vegetables and herbs, using perennials wherever possible, and farm these crops on a larger scale if we can. After all, it was the dachas and victory gardens and allotments and community gardens that provided most of the veggies etc for many people during the hard times of the past century, and will be our best source now and in the future, no matter what happens in the wider community and the world.

Go to Geoff Lawton's website and watch the amazing videos he is producing to get an idea of what can be done in small spaces. Even a roof-top garden in New York City, and a productive farm in New England, or a permaculture site in the desert of Jordan.

Or take a look at Caleb Warnock's blog and videos, showing what someone in a harsh winter climate can do to provide fresh greens all winter, even under snow. There are all kinds of examples out there of how permaculture is making a difference, as one series of videos said it--one yard at a time--the one yard revolution.

Well, enough of a rant, I am preaching to the choir anyway, but just don't get discouraged and don't give up because some people don't understand. (I am saying this for myself as much as you--sometimes it is hard to keep going against the flow.) Got to go keep working on my design. Good day to all.

Thanks Burra, that is the series. I think it has a lot of useful info, especially for those in remote settings or who want to be better set up if things should really get messed up.

I am enjoying reading ebooks on my Nook, but I find for ones I go to lot, like my garden and permaculture books, it is so much better and easier to have a physical copy, at least for me.

Of course, I can read more books if I can find and read at least some of them as ebooks to decide which ones will really be useful. Some, at least, of the ebooks are priced low enough I can afford to buy a few I otherwise wouldn't. But some of the ebook versions are so high I still don't feel I can spend the money for them. Especially if it is one I am not sure will be that useful but I just want to be able to read it t find out before shelling out big bucks. It would be easy to spend 100's of $ to buy all the books available.

OK, the place I found that farmers handbook was green-shopping co. uk I couldn't see an actual link to the site (My kids like to tease me that I am computer illiterate), but maybe you can google it. They have a list of books, with prices, but the farmers handbooks were free when I got them a few weeks ago. Hope this helps. I really have enjoyed reading them, even though Nepal is a totally different climate from me, there is a lot of useful info that we may all need if the "normal" systems we are used to break down, as some people predict will happen.

Chris, that looks like quite an adventure. My hubby and I went off grid a couple of times, once in Northern Maine, 30 years ago, and again in Southern Utah, just before the turn of the century. Neither experience worked out well for us in the long run, and we ended up "back in town," but we sure learned a better appreciation for pioneers. Now I live in a small house, in a small town, and enjoy the benefits of power and water, but I sure understand the challenges of what you are doing. Three years ago I bought a vacant block of land 2 blocks from my house, that I am slowly converting into a permaculture garden. I do have town water, but no power on site, and my sons and I are doing most of the work needed with hand tools, so it is a slow process.

My place here in CO is also very dry, with hot summer days, but very cold winters. Have you considered the idea of creating a small greywater marsh to clean your sprout water and make it more reusable? Might be especially helpful if you do manage to put in a small pond. Or the used water could go directly into a plastic lined sunken garden bed to grow greens etc. I recently came across an online "farmers Handbook" that was put out by a group in Nepal to teach ways for their people to provide better food, cleanliness, etc. The guidebook showed farmers how to use their greywater to grow more plants. I found the book as I was looking for permaculture books and info. I can't remember my exact search terms, something like Free permaculture books. It was put into PDF form and offered free from a group in England, I think. If I can find the email I will try to get the contact info., if you are interested. The book was in 5 parts, starting with the home and yard and moving out to fields, trees, etc. The particular species don't work for me, but the concepts are definitely permaculture based, and very useful for anyone, especially someone off-grid, in my opinion.

I do find I much prefer having my birds behind a fence, so they are not "free-ranging" all over the door step and scratching up my garden beds. I know they need more room than just a chicken tractor, so I am considering getting some solar electric poulty net this summer, to keep them in a controlled area to help improve my high desert scrub that I am hoping to turn into a permaculture pasture/ savanna/ food forest.

I tried to do the fermenting thing, but the grain just got icky. I don't sprout my feed grain in the warmer months when my small food forest and garden beds produce an abundance of green leafy matter and overripe zucchini, etc, but I do the sprouting thing in buckets in the winter when fresh food in much scarcer. I don't worry about the trays and green stuff, just soak and rinse once a day for a couple of days. I don't "seal" the grain up, but do use a loose lid the first couple of days. My girls love it and come running anytime they see me come outside, just to see if I have more "goodies" for them. Sprouting does increase the volume, and if it also increases the quality of the feed, it is worth the few minutes per day it takes to rinse the seeds.

Jeremy, I don't think this is anymore expensive. I have to buy feed grain anyway, at least until I can get some forage yards and grow more of the feed the chickens eat. My target now is to get stared with some paddocks and grow some winter forage crops, like fodder radish and mangel beets, that might help stretch the bought feed.

I feed only scratch grain all year, plus whatever kitchen scraps and garden greens etc we have. In winter, I sprout the grain (a mix of wheat, oats, barley and milo) for several days. I use 2 gallon buckets I got free at the bakery department of a grocery store. I soak the grain overnight, then pour it into a bucket with holes, rinse it and drain again. At night I just shake the bucket to loosen the grain. The next morning I rinse again, and drain, and shake again at night. By the 3rd day it is just starting to get the little white roots and is ready to feed. My girls love it. But then, they love anything I bring them, and come running as close as they can get when they hear me come out the back door.

I have a tiny house and don't have room for trays of greens, though I have tried them in the past. I am hoping to develop some chicken pasture this summer, and to try the compost chicken feeding system Geoff Lawton showed in one of his recent videos. I also purchased some meal worms in the fall and have a small set-up for those. Several times a week I scoop some out and add to the chickens feed. I always just throw the scratch grains and scraps on the ground and let the girls scratch for it in the deep bedding.

I just ordered some seed for fodder radishes and mangel beets, that I plan to try for fall/winter forage crops for my chickens. And a deep woodchip mulch or compost pile is said to provide a place the chickens can scratch and find insects etc even in winter. My girls don't seem to mind the cold here in NW CO, as long as we throw some mulch on top of the snow. Also I am hoping to set up a paddock system and plant some vines, trees and berry bushes etc around the edges so they can have things to forage on that don't require a major effort to produce, as well as to provide some shade and shelter from the harsh winds and intense high elevation summer sun.

Zach, thanks for posting that. The pdf is rather challenging to read, but so much of what they put into that document is right-on permaculture. I still think it is amazing that so few people seem to realize that conventional agriculture is not the answer to world hunger, and are unaware that there are methods being used and developed that are so much better at producing food without destroying the earth and elements we need to restore ecosystem health.

So, I guess all of us who are trying to implement permaculture, on whatever scale we can, are part of this agroecology movement, right?

Ben, as Cortland said, be careful of where you place a windbreak. If your garden spot is higher than that western line, and the pond site is lower, a hedge between the garden and the lower pond area could trap frost in your garden, giving you an earlier, harder frost. Make sure to leave a way for frost to drain away from your garden if you can. But you are also correct in wanting windbreaks against that strong west wind. Have you considered something less thick, like a narrow band of perennial plants, that can slow the wind and add privacy, but not cause so much frost. For example, here in NW Colorado we also get fierce winds off the nearby desert. When we moved here 7 years ago, the yard felt like a wind tunnel at times. I planted a small food forest--a couple of young curly willows, apple trees and plum trees, with a few shrubs like Nanking Cherry, siberian pea shrub, and low ones like currants. But my best "privacy" hedge is a row of Jerusalem artichokes near the back alley. In the summer, it really makes the yard feel more private, and we noticed this year that the wind is definitely less fierce in our yard.

A sun trap could be as small as one row of trees or shrubs, or could be a band of trees with associated guild plantings, like Nanking cherry, hazels, currants, ground covers, etc, that wraps around a lawn, pasture, or garden area with beds of annual or perennial vegetables, herbs, etc. I found a good book called the Secret Garden of Survival, by Rick Austin--mine is an ebook, but might be in print form too-- that talks about how to combine guilds of plants that work together but make your garden look like an abandoned, overgrown pasture so the "zombie hordes" don't know its there and come steal your food. I don't know that we need to go that far, but he does talk a lot about guilds and how to grow a survival garden for hard times. Gaia's Garden also has a chapter about guilds, and lots of info about various plants and plant functions. I really recommend it, as have others. My copy of the first edition is falling apart, I have read it so much. I gave myself the second edition in Dec. and have already reread it twice ( it is one of the books I have checked out of the library multiple times).

The secret garden talks about laying out swales and terraces for the plantings. Then there is Mark Shepard, with his Restoration Agriculture, who created a farm of on-contour swales and trees--a permaculture savanna with grazing and crop strips between the tree rows. So there are lots of ideas to investigate. I spend most of my winters reading and watching videos and trying to find ways to adapt various ideas to my high desert landscape. Have fun!

Yes, take plenty of time to observe. Take photos of various parts of your land, different times of day, shadows, etc. Watch where the snow melts first and last, where drifts pile up, etc. Look at your zones--Zone 1, close to the house or to main paths, for the most intensively harvested or most visited crops and structures, and work out from there. Although, if windbreaks are needed, it is good to get them going as soon as possible. Geoff Lawton talked about "controlling the edges," or protecting the edges from invasion, by wind, wildlife, etc.

I recently came across another book, Backyard Winter Gardening, by Caleb Warnock (also and e-book). He does a lot with cold frames and manure-filled hotbeds, for year-round eating. Since reading this book, I have been looking at my yard in a new way, seeing where I might be able to put some frames to provide fresh food in the middle of winter. There is so much to learn that life, gardening, and permaculture, are a life-long adventure.

Yes, it is very sad. Sepp Holzer talked about an old farmer, growing apples in a "conventional" system. The processing company charged more for storing the apples, than he was paid for growing them. But he was so tied into the system and his contracts that he could see no way out. A wise person once said, "Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results." The conventional farmers, and the general permies, have been so convinced that the way it is is the only way it can be, that they don't realize they are being hoodwinked and led down a dead-end to nowhere. Unfortunately, that road can not give the future we all would like to see, of peace and joy and prosperity. Mark Shepard called it the myth of the profitable farm, if we just do this one more thing right, or find the right crop or marketing strategy. But the more they grow of one or two crops, the lower the prices go that they earn for their labor.

I just hope it is not too late to turn around and salvage something better, and I believe permaculture is the only way that can happen. Permanent plantings, with supporting guild species, and permanent cover crops or mulch to protect the soil, reduce erosion and drought, etc, and that greatly reduced input that allows us to harvest more than we put in, is, in my opinion, the only way we have a future, at least in this life. (I do believe in bright possibilities for life after death, but that is a topic for another time and place.)

Too bad we can't get more of them to at least look at what farmers like Mark Shepard and Sepp Holzer are doing, with an open mind. But like Mark said in his book, most of them are so heavily invested in the big equipment, and committed to big contracts, that it is hard for them to look at something else.

Jeff, something else to consider, is the quickly approaching crisis of peak oil, or decreasing availability and increasing price of the same. As Mark Shepard so convincingly lays out in his book, Restoration Agriculture, the only reason conventional agriculture is so competitive is because of subsidies and high use of oil. The conventional farms of thousands of acres, are only possible because of high inputs of fertilizers, pesticides, tractors, and water, all of which demand lots of petroleum based products. And the water for agriculture comes from shrinking aquifers. If we can use permacultural methods to begin to learn how to grow food that is not dependent on these inputs, we will all be better prepared to face an uncertain future. Mark reminds us that even most "farmers" today get most of their income from off the farm, and could not survive without subsidy payments. So how is that "financially competitive?"

Mark Shepard compares the actual nutrition coming from a field of corn, with the same land growing a mixed savanna-type system. The corn field doesn't even come close. Maybe one person on a small urban or suburban property can not grow all the food they need, but as people with farm-scale properties convert to systems such as Joel Salatin, Mark Shepard, and Geoff Lawton manage and teach about, the possibilities increase that we as a society can learn ways to provide the nutrition and calories we need to survive and thrive. And I still say, the nutritional value of fresh-grown herbs and veggies from my backyard is way above what we can buy from conventional farms and markets, even those that claim to be "organic."

Adam, I agree with your main points--if someone has money to buy land. A lot of people don't, so I still say, do what you can with what is available. Unfortunately, it seems you are focusing only on the one statement I made about money. In my experience, good land, in a good location, does cost more than less desirable property. My main point, though, is that even marginal land, if used for perennial food-bearing plants, as an edible landscape or even a farm, with contour swales and dams, such as Mark Shepard and Geoff Lawton and others show, will produce more with permaculture methods than if someone were to try to use it for conventional farming. Anytime someone plows and/or tills and tries to grow annual crops, it causes erosion by wind and water, and kills soil organisms. Using no-til, deep mulches, on such land, still provides more benefits than if the land is just planted to lawn or left to dry, dusty bare soil.

As I said before, a lot of us don't have money to buy land, period, and have to use what is around us. There are many people living in places our ancestors would not have picked, just because there are so many more people now living, and much of the "better" land has been paved over, built up with subdivisions and shopping centers, or degraded to the point where it is no longer fertile. That being true, isn't it better for us to try to heal the places where we now live, than to cut more of the few remaining "healthy" landscapes? Alan Savory reminds us that every society that has depended on annual crops and plowing has collapsed, and we are just about to that point. I believe permaculture can help to slow or even reverse this trend, if enough of us are willing to work to heal little pockets of degraded land. Yes, it is a slow process, but for every acre that is restored to a healthy ecosystem we get that much closer to the tipping point where the earth in one area or region can once again function in a more natural way. And as Geoff Lawton points out in his earthworking instruction, by creating swales, and dams, and other earth-sculpting features, we can often greatly increase the water and fertility of a piece of land, and the surrounding areas that benefit from the overflow and tree growth, etc.

Another point to consider, is that permaculture is not really about being self-sufficient, but self-reliant and community sufficient--people helping people to build communities. In my opinion, based on studies over many years, it is not about growing all your own food, but in living in such a way as to care for the earth around us while we care for people. Just as we talk about plants, animals, and other elements having connections, we need connections with other people too, so one person might grow veggies, one raise dairy cows or meat animals, one teach school, one make shoes, one fix cars, etc, so one person isn't trying to do everything by themselves. We tried that approach, too, early in our journey through life. I learned then, and have been reminded, often, that that approach does not work very well.

All that being said, Geoff Lawton's permaculture site feeds a lot of people--maybe not every single thing they eat, but fruits and veggies and grains and meat and dairy, etc, whatever grows in his climate. Mark Shepard feeds a lot of people, as does Joel Salatin. Those are all great examples of permaculture farms feeding people. Not all of us can do it to that scale, but every pound of food grown in a permaculture system is one less that needs to come from a conventional farm, and I believe that is a target worth aiming toward.

Those are all good points, about how to create a functional farm. Better land and water does make growing things easier. On the other hand, even on marginal land, by using swales, deep mulches, compost, green manure crops, and other methods to improve the soil and water-holding capacity of the soil, and adding climate-adapted trees and other perennials, a system of perennial agriculture using permaculture principles can do much to allow even poorer land to become productive. Even if it does not produce all the food I need, my piece of high desert provides a lot of the veggies and herbs I need, reducing my need for importing veggies from california or china, so I still think it is worth the effort it takes to work toward this target, and my land gets better every year.

Not all of us have the option to pick up and move to the "perfect place and climate," but I believe we all can do something to help ourselves. I don't believe permaculture is a system only for those rich enough to buy great land, but has something to offer all of us, to reduce our dependence on the big agri-farms and long-distance transport of foods that could be grown in our various climates and landscapes.

Geoff Lawton said on one of his videos, that permaculture can feed the world, maybe not with the amounts or types of food now being grown in huge farms, but with the nutrition that is really the most important reason for needing food. But he also says, we don't want to use the same land and farms as now being used, but to plant permaculture farms and food forests in and around the urban areas, to reduce transport costs. He claims we can feed the world using only 4% of the land now being used for agriculture, if we do it right. I remember reading that in the Soviet Union, over half of the veggies eaten were grown in the small plots just around the houses. If we plant food forests of fruits, nuts, even perennial starch crops like chestnuts and ground nuts, etc, and let animals graze on grasslands and eat fallen fruits, etc, we can get all the nutrition we need without needing to grow massive fields of annual grains. Animals don't need grain if they have good forage system, and we don't really need grain either. Growing annual grain causes massive soil erosion and requires massive inputs of energy for tractors, combines, fertilizers, pesticides, etc--all unneeded in a perennial system.

There are so many good videos and other info on the internet, books, etc, like Geoff Lawton's Greening the Desert series, Gaia's Garden, etc, but until people realize that "the traditional way" of doing things is causing a problem, they won't go looking for answers, and won't be likely to listen anyway. I think the most important thing I can do as an individual is to keep working on my own permaculture design, and create a living example that will show another way. Until I can show that it works, my words are just hot air. Geoff and others are trying to speed up the learning process, but it does still take time for a permanent change to develop.

I agree about the rivers. We have two rivers within about 20 miles either way. Both run brown most of the time, due, in my opinion, to the bare soils all around, and the ''scorched earth" policies that seem to see bare dirt and mowed or poisoned weeds as preferable to the abundant growth of weeds and other plants that are working hard to heal the degraded land. I think many people seem to feel threatened by lush growth--a "jungle" is a foreign experience to most of us, that we have to be educated to appreciate.

Paulo, I agree that clearing and tilling and leaving the land bare, is bad and leads to lots of problems, but I don't understand your comment that it reduces evaporation. In my experience, the dry soil and air from tillage, or mowing the grass and weeds as is done here, actually increases evaporation, higher than precipitation. The air in Colorado is so dry it sucks moisture out of the ground as fast or faster than we can add it back in. Even snow evaporates to the air instead of melting into the ground. I do believe that clearing the land, cutting trees, etc, reduces precipitation, and moisture in the soil. After the early miners cut a lot of trees for mine timbers, etc, the local streams stopped flowing, and streams and springs have been restored by increasing forest cover.

The grasses and other plants here are mostly bunch grasses, or clumping wildflowers, etc, with large spaces between each plant. A common practice here is to mow the weeds, leaving large bare patches of dirt, that are dry and dusty, and lead to plumes of "dust devils" whenever the wind blows. My son and I are working hard to collect and lay wood chips on our paths, to hold down the dust, but it is a slow process.

Yes, we, as a whole, are creating our own problems, and need to work together to create the solutions. I believe permaculture is one of those possible solutions. I just watched one of Geoff Lawton's videos, about how he rehydrated a property he once owned, turning it from a grassed and gullied place, to a place of abundance, with numerous dams and swales on 5 acres, with fish and frogs, and many fruit trees, creating a lush sub-tropical paradise.

You are welcome. We do need to share and help spread the knowledge and experience each person has gained, to spread the word and understanding of permaculture as far and as fast as possible.

Isn't that why we are here, at permies, and doing our permaculture projects? The more of us who actually do choose this path, and keep working on it and telling others about it, the better chance we have to get past whatever history we have that leads away from abundance. So, keep learning, keep sharing, keep planting trees and other perennials, keep making swales, and keep choosing abundance.

As one wise man said, if we have our permaculture project at least started, even if it is still tiny, we at least have credibility to talk about it. We need to start, and be the examples of what abundance can look like, if we want others to follow. Don't just talk about permaculture, but live it first.

I love my little food forest. It is not very big, and maybe not as abundant as I would like, yet, but every time I walk outside and see what is growing, I am refreshed and renewed to continue the effort to expand my system, and to learn more and teach more.

Very true, Xisca. Each situation is different, and needs much observation. Here in the intermountain areas of the US, in the summer we look for shade, the more the better. My little piece of ground is flat, sandy, and has no trees. Shade is one of our first needs at my new garden spot, both to make the place endurable in the very intense high elevation summer sun, and to help other plants grow better with partial shade and shelter from the wind, mulch from the leaves, etc. So if I can get a bunch of trees, such as honey locust or siberian pea shrub, etc, to grow from seeds in the leaves I harvest in autumn, I will let them grow as thickly as they can, then thin them out to let the stronger, faster growing ones have more room. Eventually we will discover by observation how much room they need. I have seen a few clumps of trees, mostly the siberian elms that grow everywhere in the local towns, where each tree is only a few feet apart, but each one in the clump leans a different way to reach the light.

I have even seen pear trees growing like that in southern Utah, at about 5000 ft elevation, very tall trees, but they produced very good fruit. My son had to climb on the roof of the motel (with permission from the owner) to pick a bunch for us to slice and dehydrate for winter use. All the roots were growing close together, but they shared the mulch from their leaves, and it was easier to water and tend one bed, than to have 6 or 8 trees spread out 25 feet apart. And it made a nice shady area under the trees to sit and relax. To me, that is a permaculture solution, instead of thinking, orchard.

I planted my apples and plums at home in a similar way, with 2 trees in one planting hole, then the care and maintenance is all in one place. It works well, especially in a small urban or suburban or small town backyard. Then I planted my bush fruits and ground covers around the trees, so I only have to turn on the water system for a bed, with its guild of plants, instead of in rows as in an orchard, where each tree has to be tended individually.

You are right, though, about water, if there is a reserve of water in the soil. But in our sandy soil, I have not found that to be true. So now we usually dig out the sand, 18 inches to 2 feet deep, then fill the hole with cardboard, newspaper, woody wastes, spoiled hay, leaves, compost, etc--whatever I can get, and plant in that. I have found it is much easier to spread mulch on a guilded garden, in a bed, than to collect enough mulch for each individual tree or plant. And, the winds here blow so fiercely that I have gone out after a strong gust of wind to find that all my carefully laid mulches have blown away, "somewhere over the rainbow." But with the guilds, there is usually enough plant growth to keep the mulch from disappearing, and the trees and shrubs etc all help mulch each other, so they don't actually need as much added water as they would if each was planted alone. We tried some 'spot' planting 2 years ago, with holes dug every 4-5 feet, filled with compost, and planted to corn or squash, etc, to "give each plant more room to spread its roots" according to some book I read. There was no rain to speak of, and it was impossible to water enough to keep the compost holes damp. Some corn plants did grow--to about 1 foot high before they tassled, but of course, no corn. trees would be the same, I think, so now I plant everything in larger beds, that I can prepare, mulch, water, etc as a unit. I have found that works much better in this high and dry area.

Again, as in most things having to do with permaculture, it depends. If you are in a cool, damp, humid climate, yes, give your trees and other plants more space, to let sun in. In other areas, where too much sun and dryness is the problem, it may be wise to plant closer together, or at least put in some temporary trees, to give enough shade so the understory layers don't fry in the intense sun. Each permaculture designer/practitioner needs to study his or her own situation to know what will work best for them.

We may each choose the path to abundance, but we are still influenced and affected by the choices of others, and may not be able to have a choice on being surrounded by drought. I personally can plant perennials, apply mulches, and use earth-shaping and the various methods we are learning about, but climate, weather patterns, wind, sun, etc still can have a major impact on what I am trying to accomplish. So I respectfully disagree, drought is not my choice, but it takes time and much effort to achieve the abundance I choose to see.

Andrew, I am not sure what you mean about the drought option, although I have learned from my studies about permaculture, that many of the drought events are directly related to agriculture, tilling the land, cutting down trees, and changing the way the water moves through the land. I have read that many streams in the Rocky mountains of North America dried up after miners in the 1800s cut down the trees to shore up their mines etc. And the dust bowl of the 1930s was strongly effected by prairie grasslands being plowed up and turned into "productive" farms instead of "just grass." Sadly, it is easier to look back at the mistakes made 100 or more years ago, than to look at our own mistakes, or to see that there is a way to do things differently now. Instead, we get caught up in maintaining customs, even though they cause us pain and problems.

My hope is that if enough of us (permies, restoration agriculture, agroforestry types, of whatever persuasion and emphasis, learning from folks like Joel Salatin, Mark Shepard, Geoff Lawton, Alan Savory and lots of others) keep planting perennials and greening our bits of land, we can make a difference and help to create the changes we want to see.

I don't know what kind of thistles we had around us in southern Utah a dozen years back, but I cut it when it was green and used it to make compost. I don't know that I eliminated any that way, but it did keep it from going to seed and spreading the problem.

I am hoping if we just mow the area outside the fence, between the property line and the roads on 2 sides, and maybe a strip inside the fence line, they will let it go. I see other properties, including one across the street from my garden, that is owned by the town, or at least they have a very large propane tank there to supply the town hall, that hasn't been mowed, and has just as much tall grass and wildflowers, for its size, as my place.

Part of the problem, I think, is caused by the mowing--all the native grasses and perennial herb layer are cut down by the summer mowing before they can set seed, but after the cheat grass has seeded itself, so the areas of cheat grass keep spreading. The dried cheat grass is very flammable, so if someone throws out a match or cigarette, or we get a strike by dry lightning, very common here in the summer, the dried cheat grass catches fire and the fire spreads rapidly in the wind to whatever else is growing nearby. That kills a lot of the natives, or at least sets them back a lot, while the cheat grass seeds actually thrive on fire. So the problem grows and grows.

So yes, they keep beating their heads against the same steel door, and we all get the headache. Good analogy.

Actually, the fires aren't totally a bleak picture. A friend who happens to be a cattle rancher, reminded us yesterday during a discussion about the recent fires, that places that burned 2 years ago are green with abundant grass and young browse for the deer and cattle, but I'm sure there must be better ways to manage the land here, and I am trying to learn the permaculture way as quickly as I can absorb the knowledge. This forum helps a lot, as do books and videos by Mark Shepard, Geoff Lawton, Alan Savory, Sep Holzer, and Joel Salatin that I have been reading and watching lately.

Burra, thanks for sharing that. Using a perforated pipe is something I had not considered, but it is a good idea. I am intending to raise the height of the bed later, but wanted to ease into it. When I add more material to build the mound higher would be a good time to add the pipe.

Great discussion about polycultures. I am doing polycultures on several scales this year. In my small home garden, I have several small hugelbeds (mounds of sticks covered with hay, soil, and woodchips) with mostly salad crops. In my high, dry area my lettuces all bolted and have been pulled, as also the mustard greens that acted as an early cover crop. What is left is mostly onions, kale, carrots, and a few other misc. greens. Since these are all new beds, I am really pleased they are producing at all, as this mound garden is an experiment for me. Because of the mulch, I only have to water every other day, but I still am able to harvest greens for smoothies and stir-fries about every day with minimal maintenance.

I also have a small Food Forest polyculture that looks like a miniature jungle right now. In fact, my daughter asked me today, Is anything growing out there to be able to harvest? I was able to point out to her the currants, nanking cherries, plums, and siberian pea shrubs that all are forming fruits or pods, plus all the perennial onions, rhubarb, asparagus, marshmallow herb, comfrey, horseradish, hollyhocks, and other plants in that jungle, many of which are making seed or building the soil, or other useful functions to help the whole system.

In my "other" garden, that we are establishing as a market garden and food forest or savanna, I also have several polyculture beds. My main market bed so far is 6 feet wide by 40 feet long. Last year I tried planting it as square foot beds, with 4'x6' grids of 1' squares, each grid planted with a single crop. It did not work well at all, as the squares were much too crowded with cabbage or broccoli plants, and even the peas and beans were hard to harvest, and carrots had major damage from mice and voles, etc.

This year I used the grids mostly to help me visualize the space, and sowed a mix of mustards, lettuces, peas, carrots, beets, chard, kales, etc, with transplants of cabbage and broccoli set farther apart. The lettuces all bolted in the hot May afternoons, and have been pulled to feed my small flock of layers. The mustards are gradually being pulled too. I have been able to harvest several pickings from the chard, kale, mustard and spinach, and gradually building up several local customers.

I haven't tried to tell anyone about the theory of polyculture, I just go out several times a week and pick a mixture of what greens are ready, and pack it as a greens mix. It has been pretty well received.

This is a small, one family operation, consisting of one 60 somthing female (me) and my 20 something son who assists with the heavy work. All the work is done with hand tools, so it is a bit slow to get going, but with cold frames and rebar and plastic covered tunnels, we have already harvested more than we did last year by this time, with more beds and plantings coming along, so we are gradually seeing progress. I do like the polycultures, but need to work on not sowing quite so thickly so I don't have to do as much thinning.

Eventually I hope to move toward a Mark Shepard type perennial polyculture, to reduce the amount of labor required for annual crops.