Josie Grenier

Seth Gardener wrote:Great idea.

Alot of the communities are full of extraversion, and being very social is almost expected. It would be great to have a community of recluses. I don't see it as oxymoronic at all

I think of it as an ashram

Ellendra Nauriel wrote:I think a major part of this would be respect for boundaries. I've noticed that that isn't always a given, especially when the person violating the boundary is convinced that they're "helping".

To complicate things further, some of us were brought up in an environment where we were made out to be monsters for even HAVING boundaries.

In purely physical terms, when I picture a community for recluses, I picture houses with lots of trees and hedges around each one, so a person can step outside and still not see or be seen by their neighbors. A commerce system that allows contactless trades, without any guilt for when you don't feel like making small talk. Areas where people can go to socialize, but with the understanding that some of them might just want to observe rather than participate.

It would be incredibly difficult to create such a place on purpose. But it's nice to dream about.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. "Help" can be toxic! But what you describe is what is already the norm for most people in suburbia.

Please forgive my late reply. I was not checking in online lately.

I think what I visualize is something like an ashram, where people have their home and space but where there is also some communally productive activity and space. This might be impossible because of the aggressive culture of our times that requires everyone to be labeled in some way and does not allow the time for people to grow in awareness of each other.

Eric Callahan wrote:Probably basing something off of the extended community/neighbor dynamic would be a good fit. This would also be as important work as any of the more self-aggrandizing, suffocating eco-villages with super high turnover. Not that we can't learn things from those too. But learning how to build extensive community translates much more broadly to a greater number of peoples' sensibilities and capabilities.

I sort of hate the term "ambivert" but I'm relenting a bit because it does somewhat describe me. I need my own space to self medicate solitude with, but I also need to be able to merge into some interaction on a minimally-expectational basis pretty much whenever I want. Good neighbors and a good local watering hole would probably suffice, but I sort of want that on steroids.

Important topic!

I have to look up that word "ambivert". Is it something like "intermittent recluse'?  I think good neighbors and good watering holes have been ruined by the larger society's pressure of expectations. We used to be able to ignore pushy people who are promoting some program because they would never push beyond a certain point, but now everything gets turned into an excuse to argue.

I have always been happy with solitary activities but not necessarily a loner. That used to be ok but lately I notice that it is a cause for gossip. I tried to defend myself by giving one of my watercolors to some new neighbors who acted very hostile and I knew they were being told I am crazy because a certain neighbor who IS crazy says that about me, but we all know him and he says that about everyone. He is a hard working man who takes care of his wheelchair-bound wife who used to also be a hardworking woman before her stroke. But as new neighbors move in, they don"t have the history to account for this man's attitude. These new neighbors that I gave the watercolor to, took it as proof I am crazy because who does that? Who gives a nice original seascape to a stranger? They became even worse but fortunately they did not stay long.

But the experience reveals a lot about what is wrong. Gossip is no longer dismissed or ignored. Everything is taken to be a sign of something else.

Paul Eusey wrote:Ummmm... It sounds like an oxymoron... Like the humorous and contradictory thought of a hermit village. Recluse and community don’t really mix. So perhaps recluse is not quite the right word for what you have in mind.

Many apologies for late reply. I was being reclusive....
But I think you are right. "Recluse" doesn't exactly fit. It suggests someone who is almost antisocial, whereas I meant to convey something more like "independent".

Actually what you describe is what I meant: a community of people who are able to get along without being all entangled in each other's personal lives.

"Unintentional community" is a good description. It holds up the idea that just like "you can't pick your relatives", "you can't pick your neighbors". That old saying is one I learned from my mother when she referred to a certain drunk uncle. As I get older, it means more. It means you don't join the gossip and attacks on the guy even if you don't like him and you acknowledge kinship without necessarily defending him. It means "tolerance" and even carries the notion that you would be there for him in a serious crisis like a hurricane. This is a concept that seems lost these days.

Intentional communities scare me. They seem to me to be mobs-in-waiting.

kadence blevins wrote:Yep! It's not a simple this is x plus y equals z.
This is something I struggle with also. For me most of what I work with is from my own sheep or fleeces I've bought. The actual costs and time versus what price I'll actually be able to sell at worries me. I haven't found a set solution that works for me yet. I'll be doing some math comparing my numbers in Ranson's math outlined there.

What I see and hear is baseline 10-15 cents per yard for handspun. Harder to spin? Higher price. More costly fiber? Higher price. Time consuming prep? Higher price.
So generally my go-to spinning is going to produce X yards/oz abouts. So if that ends up 2ply DK weight then that's the easiest and quickest for me. For me spinning other weights I'm going to notch up the cost because the time and effort are more. For someone else that is going to be different. Art yarns are much more prep and time intensive and will cost more.

Sorry for late reply. I was traveling to Mars with that new stainless steel starship.

But here back on Earth: you mean "art yarns" are not what I can call my first lumpy efforts? ☹️ Oh well....

Actually I don't think this kind of activity can be priced in isolation from everything else. I mean, what we are doing is calculating all the time, energy and materials that are specifically involved in spinning yarn. This works at the industrial level, but as individuals we are actually returning to a pre-industrial practice.

I have been looking at my whole life as a terrarium and trying to work out how each activity fits into a complete cycle, accounting for the balance of inflow and outflow. This makes for much fuzzier math than the question of dollars and cents per yard of wool.  Recognizing that underpricing my yarn (if it were up to standard of selling to the permies, which it is not) is tantamount to creating trash, I have to look at its value differently. This has caused me to decide not to sell it now or in the near future but to store it up and use it in items that I can sell at some future point. This is possible because I am not relying on the yarn to pay my rent, but if I were to try to spin a ton of yarn and sell it off, I wouldn't be able to pay the rent and still have money for fiber, anyway. Or for the land to raise a few sheep, etc. because I know I cannot compete with more skilled spinners (and of course I would have to upgrade from a drop spindle!)

There really is no easy solution to this question, but shifting the thought process from dollars (particles) to energy flow (waves) does help.

Harmony d'Eyre wrote:Thank you for sharing; you've solved my current problem and I hope to use your idea for my yarn!

So happy to help! Please post a picture of your version of this Lazy Kate if you make one.

Not kidding. This is needed. It can be done.

If it were done, what would it look like? Has it ever been done?

Would it be structured or anarchic? Would reclusive life be required of every member? What if a recluse started receiving visitors?

I think a hint of what I am imagining could be seen in the ashrams of Mahatma Gandhi's followers. Another hint could be seen in the Catholic monastic houses of the Middle Ages or the Buddhist monasteries of old Tibet.

Perhaps even the lodges of some Native American tribes or the old ethnic tenement neighborhoods of early 20th century America.

What do you think?

😂 I said my handspun was "lumpy" not "grumpy"

Here is a wool beret I made for a friend. It is not handspun but my handspun right now is too grumpy for your contest. I need to improve my spinning skills before making something like this.

Here are some pictures of my Cheapskate Lazy Kate