• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

Mycorrhizae - keeping it alive or how long will it last?

 
Posts: 29
2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've happened upon a very beneficial relationship in my gardening exploits this year with the help of a mentor. I've been transporting pine needle and leaf litter from my ponderosa pine/oregon white oak forest to raised beds and mixing it with composted rabbit, chicken, and goat manure.

Now, this forest litter has mycorrhizae all up in it. I know because I see it when I dig it and transport it to my beds. As I understand it, this mycorrhizae is feeding off the manure in my beds and releasing nutrients that are better available for my plants to utilize. Please, I am naïve novice so correct me if I'm wrong.

My questions: 1.How long does this mycorrhizae survive? 2. If it is dying, can I do something to keep it alive and productive? 3. Will my 15 acre forest's leaf/pine needle letter be a consistent source of this mycorrhizae or if I keep stealing it, will it eventually quit producing?

Thank you for educating a naïve novice like me.
 
Posts: 1
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
1. It is hard to predict how long your mycorrhizae will survive. The manure will be a great source of innoculum to the leaves and pine needles. An important distinction to keep in mind is that mycorrhizae are to aid the plants with uptake of nutrients will plants that are alive. The saprophytic fungi are what will break down your pine needles and leaves (this will make great fertilizer).
2. I'd suggest keeping up what you're doing. Make sure there are some plants sort of nearby to increase percentage of endophytes (fungi that will actually aid in uptake of nutrients to live plants). The most important thing is to have adequate dead/decomposing organic matter which you'll have if you passively keep your compost full.
3. It won't stop producing. You may have different strains of fungi take over that have varying degrees of effectiveness, but it'll always be better than nothing.
 
Bernie Clark
Posts: 29
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Eli Freddy wrote:1. It is hard to predict how long your mycorrhizae will survive. The manure will be a great source of innoculum to the leaves and pine needles. An important distinction to keep in mind is that mycorrhizae are to aid the plants with uptake of nutrients will plants that are alive. The saprophytic fungi are what will break down your pine needles and leaves (this will make great fertilizer).
2. I'd suggest keeping up what you're doing. Make sure there are some plants sort of nearby to increase percentage of endophytes (fungi that will actually aid in uptake of nutrients to live plants). The most important thing is to have adequate dead/decomposing organic matter which you'll have if you passively keep your compost full.
3. It won't stop producing. You may have different strains of fungi take over that have varying degrees of effectiveness, but it'll always be better than nothing.



Thank you for the information! I appreciate the time spent in explaining this.

As far as plants that can increase endophyte percentage, is there a particular variety you recommend? Is this where we talk about comfrey or legumes or any other varieties?

I'm glad to hear the spores will always be present. I want to manage this forest well and my plans are for bigger scaled production at some point. Planting grains for example? Although, at this point, I'm going to need a lot more manure...
 
Posts: 44
Location: Northern New England, zone 5a
10
fungi foraging trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I love the idea of using needle/leaf litter with mycelia from you forest for compost. I'd echo everything Eli said, and maybe add a few *speculations*:

- Saprophytic fungi often go through several stages of succession, with one species living on fresh organic matter (primary decomposer), another taking over once that is partially decomposed (secondary decomposer), and others feeding on the leftover humus (tertiary decomposers). As the fungi already present in the litter do their work, they may be succeeded by other naturally occurring fungi. If you keep adding litter, the primary decomposer may take up permanent residence in your compost/beds.

- When you add leaf litter already colonized with fungi to your beds, you are encouraging a fungi-dominated microbiome. This is as opposed to a bacteria-dominated microbiome. Fungi prefer substrates containing lignin (like leaves) and acidic substrates (such as pine needles). Bacteria prefer substrates with high nutrient availability (like manure). By mixing the the litter, which is colonized with fungi, with manure, which is mostly bacteria, I'd guess you're making a good mix of a fungal/bacterial microbiome. This is also related to the idea of the carbon-to-nitrogen ratio of your compost. I'm not sure what's best for raised beds, but I think they tend to err on the side of bacteria. If you have any fruit/nut trees or bushes, Michael Phillips (late author of The Holistic Orchard and Mycorrhizal Planet) promotes creating fungi-dominated soils, which would benefit from adding the fungi-colonized litter.

- When you remove the litter from the forest, you preference the regeneration of pines over broadleaf trees. Pines generally colonize scarified earth, while broadleaf trees prefer a thick organic horizon (see Anna Tsing, The Mushroom at the End of the World). You may not be removing litter at this big of a scale, but think about what you want from the forest. In terms of fungi, both pines and oaks support mycorrhizal mushrooms, including matsutake.
 
Ian Påf
Posts: 44
Location: Northern New England, zone 5a
10
fungi foraging trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Bernie Clark wrote:As far as plants that can increase endophyte percentage, is there a particular variety you recommend? Is this where we talk about comfrey or legumes or any other varieties?



As far as this goes, there are probably a bunch of strategies that I'm not familiar with. One I know that's been researched is that by keeping a plant that supports endophytes in your beds at all times, you can increase the endophyte colonization of your crops. This means as a cover crop in the fall/winter, or as a live mulch when you are growing a plant that doesn't support endophytes like cabbage, mustard, or buckwheat. I've heard of/seen people using legumes or ryegrass for this. Comfrey should be kept a few feet from your annual crops IMO.
 
It is an experimental device that will make my mind that most powerful force on earth! More powerful than this tiny ad!
GAMCOD 2025: 200 square feet; Zero degrees F or colder; calories cheap and easy
https://permies.com/wiki/270034/GAMCOD-square-feet-degrees-colder
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic