Alternate means of energy conversion

Hello People,

DaS Energy a long time practice of permaculture would like to share some home made means of alternate energy conversion.  This simpliest and most efficient of these be an all inclusive turbine, meaning no parts need be added to acheive activation.  The principal of operation being the expansion of any gas.  The system works by cool gas filled vane moving to point of heat causing gas expansion and thereby drive force.  At completion of drive the hot gas escapes the turbine into a cooling chamber of cool liquid, (that liquid may be any but best if having a low freezing point as gas such as CO2 has much energy at temperature below 0* Celius) where the gas cools during its rise to the surface of contained liquid.  The turbine now having departed the hot gas and become full of cool liquid continues upon upward rotation to point where centrifical forces throw out the cool liquid  into the cooling chamber and cool gas takes its place, to where again its transported to the heat source.  Some care needs be taken in choice of building material to withstand the forces encountered.  Personaly we have chosen to work with C02 given its high forces at very low temperature.  Attached are the full workings and Graph of Co2 at low heat.  High heat Co2 at 120* Celsius is 10,000 bar yet only 9 bar force is required to produce 720 watts at a flow rate of 1 litre per second. Increase of either flow rate or pressure increases wattage output.

      I suspect that we have a language barrier here since it is unclear what you are trying to say.  Is this some type of steam engine?  Are you selling these units or it is your diagram a blueprint for me to build my own?  If it is a blueprint I doubt that mine will work

    If you have a website which would clarify things you might want to tell us about that.

Hello Dale,

Sorry about any confusion I not be best  at conveying using the written medium.
To answer your question,  it not a steam engine, more a gas engine dependant upon heat.
No we do not sell these units but provide free full assistance to those who wish to copy. 
Sorry no web site. Our development work is purely hobby at present.  If it be of any help to you, a simple turbine can be made by cut and weld of pipe, this will provide you with what is known as the turbine runner.  The turbine runner itself fits into another peice of cut larger pipe.  This will leave you with a turbine runner in a case but no sides.  Next you will have to cut two circles out of metal the some size as the larger pipe the turbine runner sits in.  When marking out the circle be sure to keep the centre marked as this will need be drilled out to allow the turbine shaft place to sit. Next a hole is drilled through both side plates at bottom of turbine arc.  Then a cooling tank is attached at the bottom and covers both holes, this ensures the gas escape and fluid intake. Then at the top of the turbine arc another hole is drilled that has a pipe attached leading to the cooling tank. This is at the point the liquid is flung out back into the cooling tank as the cool gas fills the turbine vane. A further hole is drilled in the top of larger pipe at point where the heat is applied this gives a direct force line when the gas is heated.  Hope I have been of some help.  Peter

This appears to be taking the idea of a steam engine... err turbine and running it a lot cooler by changing the heat transfer medium from water to carbon dioxide. It sounds like this is not something yet built, but an idea ready to pursue.

The plus side is that the temperature range is moved to well within even low temperature solar projects. The ground makes an ideal heat sink for the cool side with the added benefit of warming the ground for winter heating.

Also, the materials do not have to withstand as high a temperature and so there is greater range of materials available to use.

The down sides (as I see them... and I am not a steam engineer... or any other kind ):

One has to be careful of existing patents as the steam version has lots... the up side being that many of them may have expired by now.

Also, even though we are not using steam, we are still using a gas and gas expands and builds pressure very easily. All of the dangers of steam and steam pressure systems are still here. Beware.

And... in the middle....

Although there is pressure, at least if it leaks it is not hot.... on the other hand, hot things tend to make us more cautious and caution is needed just as much here as with steam.

So, having said that, can we make this out of plastic?

Hello Len,

I do agree with you reqarding caution, our original model has long since changed hands as we moved onto other things.  There be no steam patents as the design will as it stands is unsuitable for steam, though if the top pipe was removed it could be used for steam. It then would be a case of steam escape into the cooling tank and water only travelling the turbine runner.  However steam requires extremely high temperature for force, eg, +550* Celsius steam has only 175 bar pressure where as Co2 (also known as refrigerant R744) obtains 175 bar pressure at around +60 Celsius. I do have the graph for what is known as Supercritical CO2 but do not know how to post in reply, sorry.  Should you be able to assist most happy to post on forum, alternately contact at my email adress will see it deliverd to you.  Peter

DaS Energy wrote:
I do agree with you reqarding caution, our original model has long since changed hands as we moved onto other things.

One wants to ask why? If it is promising, why move on to other things? (yup, I'm being nosy. if there is a flaw in the idea or some expensive obstacle to over come, I would like to know what sooner than later )

However steam requires extremely high temperature for force, eg, +550* Celsius steam has only 175 bar pressure where as Co2 (also known as refrigerant R744) obtains 175 bar pressure at around +60 Celsius.

Which is about the temperature most solar hot water systems operate at... at least those that store hot water for domestic use and space heating. Even if the panel "boils off" for some reason, the storage tank is very unlikely to to rise much above 60C. A graph of Co2 temp/pressure would be useful for setting limits.

I do have the graph for what is known as Supercritical CO2 but do not know how to post in reply, sorry.  Should you be able to assist most happy to post on forum, alternately contact at my email adress will see it deliverd to you.  Peter

Quite honestly, I don't know what that means... or how it would be useful. While I am technically inclined, I am no engineer.... my training has serious gaps outside of electronics. If your graph is a picture or graphic it can be added with the additional options below the text input window. Paul is (quite rightly... I would be too) picky about what kinds of files can be up loaded.

Hello Len,

No not being picky, We just like doing that not done before, after converting a metal transfer pump, we moved on to a possitive action pump again heat activatedbut only having three moving parts two of the the shelf standard one way valves and a floating sphere,
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/DaSvalve.jpg

Nnd now the conversion of any injected combustion engine into greater efficiency by using only one cylinder for combustion and using its heat shed for activation of the remaining cylinders as heat engine with each cylinder providing the same force as the combustion cylinder.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/Carbon_dioxide_Vapor_Pressure.gif


The graph for supercritical Co2 http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/Carbon_dioxide_Vapor_Pressure.gif

Thank you for advice now have learnt to post direct from my documents.  Peter

Sorry Len,

Got the right graph from photobucket but wrong one from doucments, shall try again. Peter

DaS Energy wrote:
Sorry Len,

Got the right graph from photobucket but wrong one from doucments, shall try again. Peter

That gives me something to read. 175 Bar is still a whole lot of pressure. I can see why PSI is not used.... 2.5k PSI is a lot more pressure than most of us are used to dealing with.

Not being an engineer, I am wondering... There is a cold end and a hot end with a turbine in the middle. The pressure is determined by the difference in temperature between the two. So atmospheric pressure at the cold end (or slightly more) at about 10 to 20 C would give us what when the temperature was raised to 60C? My weak grasp of things says not much. My guess is that the difference in pressure is what does the work so having a high minimum pressure doesn't help much. It has been a lot of years since physics.... I don't remember much.

Hello Len,

Your onto how it works almost,  cylinder B in effectively heats the gas to act similiar to the combustion in a piston engine., though without any burning taking place.  The turbine cariage then carts aways the expanded gas to recooling.  The temperature between the cool and hot gas determining the force of drive.

Our choice of Co2 is to allow activation at ambient temperature above minus 10* Celius.

To reduce the forces experienced one can change with the gas used, air is a common one but any gas may be used.

Thus the forces in play are much reduced.   Lower force gasses can be used in a plastic model.

If using Co2 as your drive gas, at 20* Celius a force of 50 bar and 60* Celsius a force of 300 bar.

The  lower the heat of cool gas and the higher the heat f hot gas the greater the force acheived.

Originaly developed to replaced the common Coal burning Steam turbine, (175 bar) and do away with the need of cooling towers, boiler and return pump.  Thus ridding all Carbon emmision without loss in electric generation, due to any low heat fuel may be used.

Peter

DaS Energy wrote:
If using Co2 as your drive gas, at 20* Celius a force of 50 bar and 60* Celsius a force of 300 bar.

Ok. What I don't understand is why use 50 bar at 20C? If this makes 300 bar at the top of our range and therefore requires stronger materials. Why not use 10 bar at 20C (for example) and lower the pressure at 60C? Even still, these are huge pressures. Just seeing an air hose with only 80psi (4 or so bar) whip around is enough to convince me of that.

I am guessing, on further thought, that the lowest temp likely to be seen (-10C where I am... but I did grow up where -40C(or F) was not that uncommon) would have to be around 1 bar. While I had been thinking to always use the ground as heat sink, it would make sense that when the sun shines less and the available heat is less... to sink the heat to air if it is also less to keep the generator producing as much or maybe more (to keep the lights burning longer hours). My thought or using 20C was that I would be adding heat to the living space

DaS Energy wrote:
Originaly developed to replaced the common Coal burning Steam turbine, (175 bar) and do away with the need of cooling towers, boiler and return pump.  Thus ridding all Carbon emmision without loss in electric generation, due to any low heat fuel may be used.

If the steam turbine uses 175 bar, what does the average steam engine use? (most of us have thought at some time of making a steam engine, but not a turbine... I am wondering why)

The fact that you are talking about it at all suggests it is doable by the average DIYer. It seems to operate at lower temperatures than a sterling and would/could run 24/7. Assuming using the sun to heat water is a lot more efficient than a solar panel... would a turbine like this be efficient enough or the whole mess to come close to or beat a pv panel?

I would be willing to live with a little less actually.... as we are getting rid of the losses that batteries introduce. Also, if it is not too hard to sync to 60Hz the losses of an inverter would be gone too... for that matter 3 phase would be possible. I would guess that the energy used by the turbine would automatically be regulated by the amount being used at any one time if we were using the gas flow to regulate turbine speed. Would it be possible to do start on demand? or would we need to at least "idle" it all the time?

Enough questions?

Hello Ken,

Heat ranges 20* to 60*Celsius are the easiest to acheive not excessive either way.
However there be no impediment to lseer heat or pressures.

Yes heat strip at cooling canb e used any other place including turbine heating.

Turbine are quite simple to make whereas piston engine is highly complicated.  Flash heating provides electricy upon demand.

Variance between hot and cold state of gas effects wattage output.

There be no average pressure for a steam piston engine. 

The efficiency of a Solar PV is the 5% t012% efficient mark whilst the turbine is 82% efficient.

The making of the turbine requires two pipes, one half size. Longitudal cut of four in lesser pipe produces turbine vanes, welded in odd numbers to half size pipe then inserted into larger pipe.

I

this sounds a lot like how a sterling motor works..am I missing something?

Hello Len,

Very close, think Stirling turbine, in fact any gas recycle turbine.
Stirling is recycle using Piston and ambient cooling.
Co2-R744 produces it own cooling by example of expansion chamber "Einstein" now in both Heated and Electric actived fridge.

More easily contained gasses such as Ether benefit from water holding where depth temperature is exploited for cooling and its surface for catchment of heat  Floatation of standard Solar hot water pannel, or more efficient pannel containing aluminuium shaving or steel wool. This attaching to centrifical pump acting as turbine.  Heat pannel refill comes from turbine disharge.  Requires DaS valve application in curcuit.