Jay Angler

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John Lester wrote:...Yesterday I dug more ditch, about 15-20 feet just above where I get in and out of my van, which had been seeing really soggy mud creeping through the gravel.

Nancy Reading might know where I read this, but I'm sure that archeologically, your distant ancestors used fleece to act as natural "landscape cloth" to help with this problem on their walking paths. I don't know if you have access to non-commercial fleece (I understand that many farmers simply compost their fleece as there's no market for it.)

Glad to hear that your efforts so far seem to be helping.

For a really muddy path in my field we have to walk up in our winter wet season, I dumped ~40 garbage cans a year of chipped and shredded tree bits for about 8 years before the area would stay walkable. At the time, getting wood chips from tree companies wasn't that hard - now they're much more popular and hard to get in my area. I needed something that was cheap and would eventually grow grass and I was prepared to be patient. However, it constantly amazed my how many wood-chips the soggy ground could suck up in a season! Now, with all that organic matter, it stays green despite the foot traffic, all summer.

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John Lester wrote: The land slopes but it doesn't run off because of the clay, so I have been told. I read that plowing is the last thing you want to do with heavy clay soils or only in a very small window of time or otherwise would make matters worse.

I am quite familiar with clay soil, and the significant difference between my climate and yours is that we get a significant summer drought. I read Patrick Whitefield's "The Earth Care Manual" cover to cover years ago and was struck by the similarities in our climates. I suggest that if you haven't read it, your local library will hopefully have a copy, and you may find it helpful, even if not directly applicable to this particular problem.

I have read that historically, UK was an incredibly boggy place and that mankind did a lot of "draining the swamp" and with the current bigger storms we've been seeing, flooding is an issue. (Aggravated by removing beavers, but my understanding is that they're being re-introduced with positive effects on managing floods.)

I absolutely agree that plowing would require absolutely perfect conditions - however, a properly designed "Key Line Plow Blade" cuts through the sod, but *does not turn it* and there is only minimal mixing of the soil. I have never tried it on our soil and the organization that was doing so seems not to have actually published their results. So I would agree - no plowing!

Our lower field tended to have standing water in the winter. Improving the depth of the grass roots by mowing higher and less frequently, and having meat chickens fertilize it, has helped enormously, but it took at least a decade. I suspect you'd like faster results.

It would be helpful to know if the field has what they call "plow pan" - a hard, impermeable layer of clay caused by repeated plowing  - is present and at what depth. If so, a trick I have used is to dig several holes - with my rock content I consider myself lucky to make it 60 cm diameter and depth, but a meter depth would be better - and fill the hole with punky wood and any green and brown organic matter you can. If it's deeper than the plow pan, it will allow the water to get under that layer. It would also support worms, which will work at expanding the healthy area. If you can make or buy Biochar (https://permies.com/f/190/biochar), adding this to the hole may help a lot.

If the issue is truly just clay soil, adding literally every bit of organic matter you can scrounge from everywhere - dead leaves, wood chips, biochar manure etc - will gradually improve it.  

The next alternative, is to consider going with Nature. Have you read about Chinampas?
Instead of thinking, "dig ditches to remove the water," the idea is to "dig narrow ponds, dumping the dirt to make higher beds, and hold the water." Traditionally they used posts rammed into the soil +/- willow woven between, to hold the dirt up high, and keep the edges of the "ditches" fairly straight sided. Some of the posts were water tolerant trees or shrubs which then provided tree hay, food, building materials etc.
https://permies.com/t/74407/permaculture/chinampas
https://permies.com/t/63991/wetlands/Images-Chinampas-share-teaching-education
If you were to attempt the Chinampas approach, having organic matter and biochar available to layer into the dirt that was being mounded up would likely help a lot to improve the soil tilth and prevent the disturbed clay from turning into concrete. The time of year you tried to start this would also be crucial. Planting into the beds promptly - even if just a cover crop - would also be helpful.

Where I am, the goal is usually to get the water to slow down and infiltrate to ensure our well stays productive during our drought period.

It would help to have a diagram of what you're trying to do? Some ideas of the slopes you're concerned with.

Also some idea of why this water is a problem - if the land slopes, doesn't the water just run off naturally? If you want it to infiltrate faster, that's were Key Line Plowing can theoretically help, particularly if you drop seeds into the plow lines so they start their roots down deeper.

Some info on your ecosystem and weather patterns would likewise help. What works in one climate, could be a very bad idea in another!

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Full, it's a cubic metre = 1000 kg x 2.2 = 2200 lbs. roughly.

Water is darn heavy. One really needs to over-engineer when supporting or containing large quantities of it.

Jackie's attempt is such a good lesson even though the attempt didn't work out.

Josh Hoffman wrote: I will have a boiled egg occasionally be difficult to peel and I can tell right away.

The fresher the egg, the harder they are to peel. If I know I want to hard boil a bunch for something special like Deviled Eggs, I have to hide a carton in the back of the fridge for a couple of weeks.

I think that the number one benefit of this system over "plant cells and peat pots," is the soil depth. I've read several places that a minimum of 3" of soil helps to not just give healthier seedlings, but helps them not to bolt.

I suspect that the only reason that commercial companies can offer all those plant cell transplants is that they've got the whole system on automatic water and artificial fertilizer. I think I would struggle to find a healthy microbe in the whole batch.

What amazes me is how many small seeds put down a 3 inch root within about 3 days, so I totally agree that depth matters.

However, if you have more space than a roll needs, I'd suggest you consider paper pots. They can be made after dark to balance the time cost.
Here's a thread that shows both round ones and square ones: https://permies.com/t/225570/paper-pots

Support will be important for both the snail method and paper pots. I was using some upcycled plastic bins, but as they've gradually been dying, I'm on the lookout for metal restaurant warming trays. Taller pots definitely need higher support.

If you try swapping out plastic or waxed paper for something biodegradable, the seeds will try to send out lateral roots through the paper or cloth wall. How much this will be a problem partly depends on the seed, and partly depends on how quickly you plan to transplant them. The video implies that she will transplant them into a larger pot, but doesn't show what size she's planning to use. I get to skip that step, as my paper pots have enough soil to get many seeds to large enough plants that I can dig a hole and drop the paper pot directly in and not disturb an root that stayed inside. Yes, I often get roots growing out the bottom with things like peas and beans, but so long as I'm gentle, the plants don't tend to have a set back.

Looking forward to how the snails work out!

Leigh Tate wrote:

Jay Angler wrote:I do know of someone who grows vining tomatoes over their greenhouse in the summer, but they'd be a pain to pick and leave a splatted mess if they weren't picked! His greenhouse was a different design.

Which is another good point because it would be impossible to get up on the glass roof to pick anything or clear away dead vines.

I had figured with the beans, you'd pull them down in the fall and pick any dry beans for winter eating.

However, your point about the roof shape is very valid. Could you make 2 bamboo panels that rested on each side of the house roof? Maybe tied to some sort of hooks, so they can't blow off? Then sloped down until the hit the front of the greenhouse? You might need a vertical support at the front edge to match the height of the roof. Having an air gap between the "shade" and the "glass" might actually be an asset, but I'd have to check that with my engineer.

This could either be a panel for bean plants, or simply be enough shade from the bamboo alone depending on how it's built. Even if it too only lasts a season (I suspect bamboo would be good for 3-4 seasons, but that's my ecosystem) it is at least biodegradable and won't shed microplastics which is my concern with shade cloth.

Bamboo being so light weight would be an asset.

I installed this gate and the fence in spring 2022 and it is still vertical, but has been infiltrated with weeds at the bottom. That project stalled as the rabbit pressure went up to the point that I figure Fort Knox is my only hope. That said, the rabbits are being assisted by rats and deer and it's really the combo of all three that have at least temporarily defeated me. The rabbits could push through the springy bamboo at the bottom of the gate.

More pictures here.