John Eickert

Hmm, so Jay's telling me that mountain lion urine has not worked in my orchard for sixty years. So why then do the deer eat the neighbors apples and not mine?

Hi Jami. Am wondering what you decided? Seems late now but I would want to know where you live, what you need to kill, if you could kill and how much you are willing to practice.

Human urine can keep deer away if the deer are heavily hunted and therefore fear all humans. However, mountain lion urine works well on all deer.

I agree with Tyler. Weasels, ferret, mink, martin, fisher are all carnivores and as such are in there after the ones that are eating your corn. Sure, it could be argued that a weasel might nibble a kernel but it would make the little sucker sick and if it didn't die it wouldn't do it again. Also, cats are good on mice, rats and such.

Maybe. When you say, munching on your sheep, it sounds as the sheep were attacked but not taken. If a cougar killed one of your sheep, it would be displaced to a quiet place in thick brush or under a low tree. The telltale sign of a cougar kill is how the remains are covered when the predator finishes its munching.

No hybrid, no fox, no coyote, no wolverine, no bear just a small wolf.

Yes, permaculture draws on many disciplines and techniques---all of them new. What could be learned by taking some time and traveling to the local assisted living center and asking if there were any residents who had lived their lives in that locale, had gardened and grown and were willing to share what they knew?

Am delighted to have stumbled into this discussion and really enjoyed the comments/observations Ken Peavey shared in this forum. One of the enormous hurdles that saddles permaculture is the loss of tried and true land knowledge. When I was a boy, we had a number of neighbors who came out to Montana in covered wagons. These knowledgeable elders could also grow the best fruit, vegetables, poultry and beef and they did so totally self contained by implementing information that had passed down, word of mouth, trial and error, through countless organic generations. They practiced permaculture without knowing they practiced permaculture and kept the seeds and offspring that worked on "their place." But as Ken pointed out, 50 years ago the chemical farmer came into being while at the same time hundreds of years of knowledge was lost as pioneers passed away. Now, modern hands-on agriculturists are beginning to reach the land first person again and because of knowledge extinction must "reinvent the wheel." What this new surge will need is hands on experience and a pioneer mentality. The internet can be a guide but not a work buddy. Nothing is guaranteed. And perhaps most important, what works in one place may not work in another even if there is only a short distance separating the efforts so what a permie hopeful must do is go out and get dirty.

Hi Burra. Have enjoyed reading about you, your donkeys and your attempts to make bone sauce. Seems like there could be a book there. Here are some thoughts on all this from an old Montana guy. If you need to keep deer or donkeys or such out of your orchard here in Montana, you go to a hunting supply store and purchase male mountain lion urine. Deer, elk, cows, horses won't go near an apple, pear, cherry or plum tree that has that cat stuff sprinkled liberally at its base. Reapply after it rains. Birds attacking your fruit after the fruit has formed? Take a four foot chunk of thick rope and drape/coil it in your trees but you must move the rope three or four times a day---this works pretty well but is not perfect as some robins seem to be either fearless or Darwinian stupid. Don't know how either of these would work where you live but it is worth a try as neither is labor or time consumptive.

Ta da! Grow lemons in Montana and fifty million people will stand in awe.