Andrew Frankel

Whoa! Thanks all for the thoughtful replies!

C Englund - I had thought of a pond to drain into, but didn't know tile could drain into a pond on such level land--wouldn't it back up or just sit there in the pipe? I like the idea of soaking up some of the water with water loving plants--maybe hybrid willow or poplar instead of bamboo. The idea of creating "islands" with low spots is really appealing as well. Wonder if something like one or two bigger ponds to drain into, then a series of wetland cells/microponds scattered around would serve the purpose. Would also probably create some interesting microclimates, and a lot of wildlife habitat.

Collin - I think you're right about the soil oxygenation--it can be fairly stinky (anerobic) when you're digging around in wetter areas. The sense that I get from what I've read and what you've posted though, is that with the right species and the right techniques, clay can be opened up a bit and encouraged to breathe, and maybe drain some more. Just a difficult soil to work with, and you pay for mistreating it. At best, I know I can grow sugarmaple here--they're weeds in the woods nearby, and there'd be worse things to have than a sugar bush!

Hisako - Whoa, sounds like you've got a lot going on a few counties over! I'd never heard of sweet sap sugar maples--very interesting story on the St. Lawrence Nursery site, going to have to buy some to grow in the wetter areas. What sort of subsoiler did you guys use? I've been asking around to see if anyone owns a Yeomans plow, but they're unheard of in these parts.

Brenda - Interesting blog--looks like you've got a lot of projects going on. Saw the hugelbed you made--it's huge! The water table is even higher on your land than mine, though--don't envy that.

Jen - Sounds a lot like the problem I'm having, and I do think subsoiling might help, if it's deep enough. I think tree roots eventually being into the soil will help keep it open to some extent, but as I'm learning, only so much can be done.

Some great ideas, folks. Going to have to spend some time trying to synthesize and see how these pieces might fit together. If anyone else has suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them!

Hello, Forest Garden forum!

I'm hoping you can help point me in the right direction. I'm an aspiring young farmer who has come to appreciate the logic behind perennial food production based on natural ecosystems. Unfortunately, the land I have access to is about five acres of flat, flat, flat, poorly-drained, NE Ohio clay. The water table is perched fairly high in spring/winter in many areas, though it dries out sufficiently in summer and fall most years; adjacent property is partial wetland, to give you a sense of what I'm dealing with.

The result of my reading and initial conversations with the extension agent suggest that the drainage issues seriously restrict the forest garden species I can plant with any expectation of success. I know Dave Jacke's book has a list of species tolerant of wet soils, but it is a short list indeed, and does not include important fruits and nuts, chestnuts in particular.

I have debated subsurface drainage, but there is no outlet without crossing multiple property lines, and in addition to the costs involved I would be concerned about planting a food forest over/near tile anyhow. The county maintains a large network of ditches to provide surface drainage, but none cross this property. Essentially, the water has nowhere to go.

I've heard some permaculture folks say to let the land tell you what it's trying to do, and allow it to do that, but that means planting the few, less desirable, less useful species that can tolerate the soils. I'm not quite ready to do that yet, so I'm hoping someone has an idea on how to improve this situation.

In trying to wrap my head around this challenge, I've considered a system of swales and berms, but was unsure of their value on such flat land and with such poor drainage. Hugelkultur mounds seemed like an option, even given the enormous amount of wood I'd have to collect, until I read a number of posts on this site suggesting that trees do poorly planted on top of hugels. Could subsurface/surface drainage make enough of a difference, if I could find an outlet?

As someone with little experience in these matters, I appreciate any feedback you folks can give.

Thanks,

Andy