Miles Rose

Heather Staas wrote:
Currants and gooseberries are hard to find in stores, but you can sometimes find them at fresh farmers markets when they are in season!    I love them,  quite tart and juicy.  

I'm weary of growing something if I have not actually eaten it to see if I like it, but these sound really good and like a perfect fit for my shaded fence line for this year... So I'll try growing them anyway and "live on the edge" haha!

Heather Staas wrote:
I really like the plan with parking and the keyhole beds,   when I rented I would have loved the chance to have something like that to grow food and herbs in while I rented.  

Sounds like I'll need to find a renter from Permies in a few years to take over the garden once I move out xD

Hayley Stewart wrote:So first of all, I apoologize - I'm just a beginner myself, but couldn't help replying. Please take the following thoughts and suggestions with a pretty coarse grain of salt. I've been gardening on my apartment balcony for 4 years now and I've recently been lusting pretty hard after the opportunity to work with a larger space (my balcony is about 8ft x 10ft) - so I'd be the happiest tenant taking over your proposed garden!

I think it's a good idea to take this first year to keep things flexible so you can observe how things grow and test out these ideas. I don't see why a raised bed system couldn't be retired to some easy/no-care native plants that your neighbours/new tenants could enjoy when you move out, if they don't want to garden. That being said, a first year in containers could show you where the best places for some of the plants you want to grow will be, and give you some time to source materials for your raised beds. There are tons of people in my neighbourhood who build very simple trellises over their carports and successfully train grape vines overtop, might be a good option if you'd like to maximize your growing space and don't have much success along the fences.

I love the idea of passing the garden on to a future tenant once I move elsewhere. The idea of dismantling a garden just feels a bit backwards to me, even though the materials would end up being repurposed somewhere else. Plus, if the tenant enjoys stewarding the garden then that might encourage them to stay for longer, win-win!
Also, that's a very interesting idea of "retiring" the raised beds to no-care natives plants after I leave, I had not considered that. I'm sure that would really help to boost the native insect and bird species around here as well!

What a great idea to trellis over the parking area! Initially I had pretty much written off the parking area except for maybe trellises along the fence lines, but trellises on top of the parking area would allow me to reclaim much of that area for the garden. The only concern I might have about growing vining berries there is the "mulberry effect" where berries rain down on vehicles, birds perch and eat the berries and their red colored manure also rains down on the cars! Just gotta harvest them fast I guess! Maybe growing pole beans on the carport trellis would be less messy? What plants species do the trellis carports in your neighborhood have?

Hayley Stewart wrote:
Finally, the light issue is annoying but it might not be the worst problem. If anything, it might just mean revising your plant list. There are lots of tasty plants that do fine in shadier areas: Shade Tolerant Edibles

Again, things can always be moved. I have had to do a lot of digging to find out how to work my plant list into useful guilds, but small guides like this are a good starting point. Note taking really helps! Companion Planting - west coast seeds

I really wish I had focused more on shade tolerant species in my seed selection, that thread you linked to is an excellent resource! My plant selection "process" was basically just me scrolling through the burpee website and picking a bunch of things that I like and that I have seen other people growing in my region.
Regarding guilds, I'm starting to think that it might be interesting to experiment by using containers, arranging the containers into different guilds and seeing what effect the plants have on each other, and then possibly rearranging them into other guilds to see what happens (as long as they have not grown into each other and become inseparable)

I think a good approach for this year might be to focus on container gardening for their flexibility / rearrange-ability and observe how different plants respond to the different light conditions in the yard, and how the plants respond to each other in different container guilds. After my observations from the first year, I would have a better idea of how to arrange the raised bed guilds, and what plants do best in which locations.

Thanks for the input, lots of great ideas here!

Mk Neal wrote:Seems like a good list of herbs and vegetables. If you are looking at what you can get use out of within the next five years, and only partial sun, I think you should put the annual herbs and veggies you like best in the sunniest parts to the yard. Plant some more shade-tolerant perennial flowers nearer the house to attract pollinators.

That is a great idea, it makes a lot of sense to reserve the slightly sunnier spots for the prized food producers, and leaving the shadiest spots near the house for shade tolerant perennial pollinator flowers since I won't be harvesting their yield. It would also be very nice to look out the window and immediately see lots of flowers and pollinators. I love the look of Fern-leaf Bleeding Heart flowers, and Toad lilies.

Mk Neal wrote:

For fruit, you might have better luck with currants against the west fence, they do OK in part shade and also will get you some berries after two years. Most of them are thornless and not quite as aggressive as raspberries/blackberries, so not leaving a bramblepatch for future tenants, just soem bushes they can enjoy or ignore. Grapes take longer to produce, and require more maintenance, but if you plan to maintain ownership of the property, you could keep them up even after moving out.

I have never actually eaten currants before, I'll look for them next time I go grocery shopping! It sounds like they would be a great candidate for a fast fruiting shade tolerant berry. Certainly sounds easier to maintain since it is thornless

Hello Permies!
I own and live in a duplex with my partner. We're in a dense urban neighborhood (Hamtramck, Michigan")
I have gardening experience from past jobs on organic farms, wwoofing, and some of my own container gardens, but this will be the largest garden that I have started myself. One of the main purposes of this garden is to reduce my food bill, but another purpose is just for my own learning experience. Eventually (years in the future) I would love to own a homestead with acreage, but for now I am using my urban yard as "training" for the future homestead that I have in my head ;)

Right now my back yard is basically a blank slate. it measures 50 ft x 30 ft. I just recently had the ground graded so that water from the alley would not flow into the backyard anymore, so right now the ground is bare.


Here are the constraints that I am facing:

1. The soil is contaminated with lead and other nasty stuff so I don't want to grow directly in the ground. I think that raised beds with bottoms or containers or wicking beds will be my best bet.

2. The back yard is facing north / northwest and is shaded for the first half of the day by the house. But in the afternoon it does get some good light. In the summer there is about 5 or 6 hours of full sun back here.

3. Parking is VERY tight where I live. This house is a duplex (I am the owner and I am renting out the other half) and I designated the front parking spots for my tenant, so that leaves me and my partner's cars without a designated spot. I am thinking about sectioning off the back 2/5ths of the back yard (a 20 ft x 30 ft gravel area) for my car and my partner's car, which we will access through the back alley. However, this will mean sacrificing garden space, which makes me a bit sad. That leaves only 30 ft x 30 ft for the garden.

4. Probably the biggest constraint: This is not my "forever" home, I might only be living here for another 5 years or so before I eventually move across the state to somewhere with a little more breathing room. At that time, I would rent out both halves of the duplex and hire a property manager to take care of the place for me. But while I am living here, I want to make the most out of what little garden space I have. So basically I'm not sure how "permanent" I want the garden infrastructure to be (does that make it less "perma"culture?)
My current tenants in the other side of my duplex are not interested in gardening, so they would not want to inherit a raised bed garden once I leave. but once I eventually rent out the side of the duplex that I am living in, maybe that new tenant will like gardening? In that case I could give the raised bed garden to them. Or I could just plant in containers and then take the containers and soil with me when I leave...

5. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on super fancy garden infrastructure. I am hoping that the garden pays for itself within a few years, so I want to keep infrastructure costs as reasonable as possible.

Here's a few drawings of my layout ideas so far, but I have not yet designated where specific species will be planted:

This layout has "semi-permanent" garden infrastructure, keyhole style raised beds. Mulch paths and a gravel parking area. The design has the back 2 corners of the house with 255 gallon IBC totes for irrigation which catch water from the gutter downspouts on the corners (not shown) Compost bin in the bottom left corner. Trellises are along all of the fence lines where I would grow pole beans, raspberries and grapes (which I have not obtained yet) but I am a bit doubtful of how well they'll do in such shade at those angles.




This layout is much more temporary/portable using a bunch of containers and it looks more like a nursery. Depending on the plants, I might not have them spaced so close together. Still, I imagine it would probably be more difficult to irrigate, weed, and harvest from a bunch of containers vs the raised beds. But the advantage is that I could take the containers and the soil with me when I eventually move. I haven't really seen any examples of anyone outside of a nursery gardening like this, so if anyone knows of gardeners who pulled this off please let me know!


Maybe I'll end up using both raised beds and containers in different spots?

I'm also trying to consider what the best ground cover for the garden area would be. I would like something that is low maintenance yet budget friendly yet aesthetic. These designs have mulch paths on top of landscape fabric, but eventually it will decompose and grass will start growing through it, which will mean more maintenance after I leave. Maybe I could use the same gravel from the parking area for the whole back yard (with landscape fabric underneath) this might be less maintenance, but probably less aesthetic...

I have not yet decided where specific plants will be located in the layout, but 5 weeks ago I started a lot of my favorite plants as seeds indoors under grow lights.
Lemon Balm,
Lemongrass,
Thyme,
Oregano,
Basil,
Parsley,
Cherry tomatoes,
Garlic,
Onion,
Bunching Onions,
Lavender,
Chocolate Mint,
Sage,
Tomato,
Lettuce,
Fennel,
Sweet Pepper
Chamomile.

Soon they'll outgrow their solo cups and be ready to transplant. Those are just the seedlings that I have already started and that might be all I do in the first year, but I would like to incorporate more vine species like pole beans and grapes.
I'm planning on adding more perennial berries like blueberries and raspberries after I figure out what exact infrastructure I am going to put together.
I'm also considering how I could make effective "guilds" out of the seedlings that I started already, or what missing pieces of guilds I could add in. (more beneficial insect attractors / pollinators?)

So basically I have a lot of ideas each with pros and cons and I'm looking for a sanity check from someone with more experience / insight than me! I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions!

Thanks for reading my long post :)

Peter Ellis wrote:It's been just a little over two years since I started this thread (?)and just a little less than that since we got onto our land. Pretty much been running too hard for spending time on Permies since then! House isn't built. Foundation isn't even in yet. Lots of the timber for the frame has been harvested and prepared but lots more still to go. Michigan winters in a travel trailer are a special kind of "fun". Doing timber falling is exciting and chainsaws are tools that you have to give proper maintenance (and full respect!). Moving large oak timbers without appropriate equipment is extremely hard work and takes absurd amounts of time. Took Matt Powers' Advanced Permaculture Student Online course over this past winter. The design for Tenalach Farms is my PDC design. The house is my Advanced Permaculture Certificate Project. Round wood timber frame with strawbale infill, attached greenhouse, PAHS system under the center floor of the home. Shed roof facing south by southeast, going with metal roofing, planning on a rocket mass heater for supplementing the passive annualized heat storage.

This spring summer and before it gets too cold in fall I want to push the house build as far as I can. Target is to get the frame up and the roof on before winter. At that point we can wrap it in used billboards and create a sheltered environment in which to keep working through the winter.

Annual garden is mostly in and an all wood fence is more than half done around it. Inspired by Scandinavian fences, it uses almost no hardware (I screwed some parts together) and is made entirely of saplings that need to be thinned out of our woods one way or another.

Peter, thank you for sharing your journey so far! I have been considering the Fennville area as a good spot to buy raw land for homesteading as well, so I found this thread very fascinating and inspiring! I really hope you will update us on your progress and your experiences gardening and building.

Have you had any issues with code enforcement due to living in a travel trailer? Or does the local government generally not care unless neighbors send reports complaining?
Also, I have read that a lot of the soils in that area are very sandy. Has this been the case for your property, and has that been a challenge when gardening?

R Scott wrote:I know lots that have parked the trailer in what would become the shop or barn--large metal building. I have seen videos of people building their house inside a greenhouse.  No reason it shouldn't work.

Yes, this video by Kirsten Dirksen is actually what inspired this line of thinking for me    

s. lowe wrote:Never seen the straight up hoop house but I've seen a number of iterations of the "trabin" where a roof and some number of walls are built over/around the trailer.
The closest to what you are describing I actually saw in Michigan, they had the trailer parked under an old carport or hay storage roof or something, they put up uninsulated wood panels on the east and west walls, salvaged panels from a walk in freezer on the north wall and made a half hoop with greenhouse plastic on the south wall.
Built decking around the trailer and had a large stove out there to supplement the trailers heater. It was quite comfortable  when i visited in early march.
I would worry about condensation and wind damage if using a simple hoophouse, but otherwise its a sound basic idea in my mind

"Trabin" I like that :D
I knew I couldn't have been the first person to think of something like this, but I just couldn't find anything documented online. Condensation is a good point to consider. I have read about people battling condensation in trailers during winter no matter what. In my mind, adding the hoop house might cause less condensation inside of the trailer, because there would be less of a temperature difference between the inside trailer wall and the outside trailer wall? Condensation would probably form on the inside of the hoop house itself, but hopefully the trailer in question is able to handle that little bit of "rain".

Wind / snow load is another valid concern that would apply to any hoop house in Michigan or other snowy climates. Assume the hoop house in this scenario is well engineered with the gothic style peaked roof that sheds show loads well

I have read about many examples of people who temporarily live in a used travel trailer on their land while they're building a permanent home. However, for those of us living in cold climates like Michigan, living in a poorly insulated used travel trailer would likely be uncomfortable / inefficient during the winter months.

My question is, does anyone know of any examples of people living in a travel trailer that has a large hoop house built over it? It seems like this would be a fairly inexpensive way to make a trailer much more energy efficient and comfortable during winter (assuming carbon monoxide is ventilated out properly) and also considering most northern homesteaders would likely want to have some kind of greenhouse on the property eventually anyway.

Of course, hoop houses can be unbearably hot during summer months, but the end wall of the hoop house could be opened up and the trailer pulled outside. Alternatively, if a large white tarp was draped over the top of the hoop house and attached to the hoops, and the sides were rolled up to allow ventilation and breezes, then the sunlight wouldn't directly touch the trailer, and it might actually be cooler than a trailer that is directly outside.

I was not able to find any online examples of anyone who has done this. Does this seem like a viable short-term plan, and does anyone know of any examples of this being done?

Thanks,


Miles

Olga Booker wrote:This is a great design, I like it a lot.  As for the algae mentioned above, maybe growing a climbing plant or two over the containers might do the trick?   It did work well for us, we have covered ours with a kiwi plant, makes great shade in the summer and in the winter, when the leaves fall off, it is no longer an issue, the winter sun does not provide that much heat.  Anyway, it was just an idea. By the way, last year, we did manage to harvest 20kg of kiwis from that plant alone!

That is a very beautiful little garden! I like the idea of growing a climbing crop around the water container. It's efficient since any overflow or spillage would be utilized by the kiwi plant! I might try this

Vincent Shelberry wrote:Man your's is nice. I want to grow watermelons and need more water, so may build one just like it!

If you're real, REAL cheap like me, you build it out of pallets
I did buy some wood for the top, but a little curb shopping in suburbia could have also yielded some free lumber to use for the roof, I'm sure.
I converted the inside of mine to a shed to store gardening tools resources...but I'm really liking the greenhouse idea too.

You're very resourceful with found materials! I bet having the water cubes stacked like that makes for good water pressure too. I am also planning on eventually using pallets to enclose some of the walls, clad in plywood. I'm wondering if simply filling pallets with straw as insulation, and having a south facing greenhouse wall would be enough to have comfortably warm temperatures  during Michigan's 0 degree winters?