I personally relate to the second post in this thread, made by Mike Jay. I feel like "fictitious conversation #2" is the direction I'm personally having with people. It's the case of physical rewards that I can show people before I start to delve into teaching them things they would have thought insane without seeing the results first. When I can show people the food I've grown in plain sight in what they believe to be just a nice looking front yard flower garden it can open their minds to change. If I hadn't shown them the food first, my neighbors would simply tell me there's a law against gardening in front yards. I feel like that is the path some of us tread, others are on the pdc path, the website path, the permaculture community path, etc. I discovered permaculture because of paul's you tube hugelkulture videos, every time we show others the quantitative results we educate and change minds. So, here's to 200x more permaculture, whichever way we can.