Bauluo Ye

Hi Don Komarechka, nice to see another European giving tea growing a go! I've been growing tea shrubs since around 2016. Both in The Netherlands and in Portugal. I struggled with the exact same questions you have. When I started, it was hard to find information about growing tea over here. It's been quite a long time since I looked into it. But I remember that it was very confusing to find contradictory information about growing tea. The deeper I looked into it, the more confusing it got!

I started out with seedlings I managed to obtain in The Netherlands. The seller didn't have any info about the variety or origin. My guess is they come from a hybrid. Considering the original tea region, I was most afraid of the Dutch winter killing the plants. Long story short, the plants had by far the biggest problems with the sun/low humidity in the Dutch summers, which usually aren't that extreme. They were growing in big tubs, placed on saucers. I watered them meticulously. Apart from a few days where temps dropped below -10C, I kept them outside year round. During summer, leaves would burn and shrivel in the sun, despite there being water in the saucer. This stopped whenever I put some shading above it. They definitively needed shade in summer! Winter wasn't a problem, really. Just a few years ago I had the opportunity to plant out the tea. I chose the most shaded spot in the garden for that. I hope to colonize the rest of the garden with the seedlings I've been nurturing. Portugal is a different story I won't get into now.

This year I accidentally walked by a tea plantation in the South of France. It had shade cloth at the ready, but not covering it (in april). Same story for a commercial grower in The Netherlands. I'm not sure about the winters where you are. If they are very cold and windy, you may want to have a look at how people grow tea in Scotland.

Your plants may not have a taproot (if they are propagated from cuttings). This would make them less drought tolerant. Especially the first few years. If I were in your shoes, I would definitively keep the plants away from getting direct sunlight in summer for at least a couple of years.

*blunt mode on*

It seems odd to me to have this discussion as if we haven't entered the Anthropocene. We're heading for 9 billion Homo sapiens in 2050. We all eat things. Something must die in order for us to live. Most likely whole ecosystems and a horrendous amount of entire species. Collectively this is what we rather want than having no or less than two children. If there ever existed such a thing as "invasive" We are it.

All is made possible by extraction of various kind. It's no use discussing conservation without discussing an alternative for the green revolution. Anybody who criticizes permies for spreading "invasives" has to offer a better alternative for feeding the world regeneratively or stop man from being a virus on shoes. I'm all ears!

Our actions shape everything on this planet, weather we want to know about it or not. We are now forced to think about how, not if, we want to shape this planet. It's scary. We're responsible for what happens next. This paradoxically includes conservation up to the point of eco-fascism. But there is no such thing as a piece of "nature" that's supposed to be like this or that. There's only desired by us or not desired by us now.

How much of the "natural" produce you buy at the farmers market is actually natural? My guess would be 0%. We live in a highly man made world. We are even driving evolution. Aren't we long beyond the point where our species has globally shuffled the genetic cards and we're going for a new round?

I haven't made up my mind about this topic. It's very complex and I've only red part of Tao Orion's book. For now I err on the cautious side. The topic is a pain in the ass to be honest, but I do feel I need to make up my mind before I risk wreaking ecological havoc. Thanks Destiny Hagest and others for taking on this difficult yet important subject.

Dear Konstantinos,

It's been ages since I responded to this thread. Nice to see you're still inspiring people. For a long time I presumed I was going to buy land in Spain and therefore prepared for quite dry circumstances. Things went another way and I ended up buying land in Central Portugal. Plenty of water there, except for the summner months. Part of me regrets missing out on the challenge of converting a "desert" into something more habitable. It's better this way though.
I did manage to lay my hands on a kg or so of bitter almonds because I've learned from you almonds are hardy as hell. Almost without thinking, I soaked them for a couple of days. They went into the ground when it was still freezing at night. The first one that came up was snatched by wildlife (I have been away since). It makes me wonder what the challenge actually is in terms of drought/rodent/seed viability ratio. This ratio may influence the time one would want to put seeds in the ground.
Nature was just waking up from winter dormancy when I put the seeds in the ground. I can imagine a mouse would grab even an almond full of cynide because it's starving and this simply happens to be the only thing available at that moment. Any thoughts?

Kind regards,

Ye

Great feedback!

Bruno Brusini and Andre Lemos, thanks for your reply. You both mention the neighbors as potential party crashers. My hunch is that, at least in Portugal, this is a bigger risk than the camara obstructing all the fun. Not saying it's a big risk. An acquaintance told me he's been living in a caravan for years and he knows of others doing it for way longer. The bottom line is it's a gamble. I don't see a way to check beforehand what the neighbors are really like. The best way would be not to have them at all. It is possible. Most folks in the villages seem quite conservative. I can imagine popping up weird constructions would invoke trouble. This is not my intention. My thinking is a xisto barn can serve as a dwelling but still look like an ordinary barn. At least it's legal to live there for <180 days/year. Who's going to check if this guy from The Netherlands out there in the woods isn't overstaying. My acquaintance told me that mostly people don't give a damn about it. I'm a nervous type though, so if I can go legit within my budget, I'll go for it. So far, no luck. Happy new year anyway!

Dear Bruno Brusini,

Thank you for your reply and sorry for my very late response! I've also concluded that non permanent structures are probably the way to go if finances are not sufficient for a legitimate dwelling. It's similar in Portugal. If possible, I'll try to go as stealthy as possible and live in an existing barn. Indeed it depends on the area and the neighbours is such a solution works. It is a bit of a gamble, but I see no other option. Are you currrently living like this? Kind regards, Ye.

Quite soon after last post I decided to go for the sub-legal option of living in a non permanent structure. No money to do everything legit (right away). So be it.
Before I know if I'm seriously interested in a plot from ERA, I'd like to know the restrictions on it. Nothing fancy. Can I build a shed? What are the max dimensions? Can I dig a pond? Can I make terraces? ERA isn't willing to give up any info before I make a bid, accompanied by a 2500 euro cheque (which will be returned according to the sales agent). I can write down all my preconditions on the "reservation document". It already came up after I had seen a tiny part of the plot for just a couple of minutes. Who the hell dreamed up that kind of bullshit? Since I didn't want to part with that amount of money on such a thin basis, I asked a lawyer to do this research for me. I'd for sure like to know what's for sale before making a bid but ERA has been frustrating this from the start. My lawyer didn't get any info from them either so she had to go around them. Communicating with my lawyer is very difficult because she's very busy, which isn't helping. I know she has found out a thing or two already. There are multiple owners, for instance, and one isn't recognizing the land. It doesn't sound good at all, but I know this is a common situation in Portugal.

I suspect ERA will view all my preconditions as assignments/work and will present me with a bill for that in the end. I also suspect they want to secure their commission with this procedure. Does all of this mean that ERA is scared as hell I'll try to make a deal with the owners without them? I wasn't thinking of it before, but by now it has turned into a wonderful alternative to wasting my time on company bureaucracy. I ain't freaking out as much as I was before (thanks Burra!), but I still have a hard time making sense of it all. Perhaps someone here can shine some light on this matter. Thanks in advance.

By the way, REMAX in Castelo Branco askes for a 6000 euro cheque. Folks, this an't normal!

Hi Rosa Bosma,

It's been a while since you've posted the above. Have you been able to find a solution yet?
If you and your boyfriend are still looking for a sensible alternative to the rat race, it may be a good idea to have a chat. To cut a long story short; I'm currently circling Castelo Branco, Portugal, in order to find a place to start living as self sustained as possible. I'm also from The Netherlands and my partner in crime is from Belgium. Neither of us are commune types either, but I'm very interested in cooperating with like-minded people in this endeavor. My ideal is some kind of co-op relationship.
As far as I can tell, there's no legal way to do what we want to do in Europe, without bringing a shipload of money. One way or another, you'll need a habitation license, building permit, architect, etc. All obligations are concocted with way to "high" standards of living in mind for yours truly. Prosperity fascism if you ask me. Perhaps we need to take our chances living in a hut of some sort on rustic land. In Portugal this is at least legal if it's not permanent. I have no clue how this is defined and what fine you can expect if you get caught. How does this play out in reality anyway? Is there a hut police patrolling the campo? How can you tell if somebody is just camping on his own land or living there permanently?
Anyway, I'll PM you my contact info. Feel free to get in touch. Good luck in your search for modest living!

After being disillusioned with the Spanish law, I find myself in Castelo Branco, researching the possibility of making the move to Portugal. Based on the info I've found so far, I conclude the legal situations in Portugal and Spain are similar when it comes to living on your own land. It's not possible, unless you bring the money for an intact-ish house or a building project. What's left is the option to live year round in a "non permanent structure" and hope your particular camera turns a blind eye. Is this the off-grid modus operandi for Portugal or am I missing something? How big of a deal is this anyway? Should I consider renting something to get an address? Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Hi Paul Ryan,

I've been looking at thinkspain.com and kyero.com a lot.
Aren't Asturias and Cantabria almost as wet as Galicia? If I were you I'd probably look for land along the North and West border of Leon and further down South and East if you wish. The precipitation map says there must be a strip of sweet spots for whichever average annual precipitation you wish. In theory.
You may also want to consider some parts of Teruel for a reasonable amount of rain and a more mountainous climate. It's not crowded at all, still Northern Spain-ish, far enough from the coast, not too hot in summer if you pick the right spot.

@ Steve Farmer
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. Priceless! I'll contact the aparejador asap if I'm seriously interested in a plot.