R Manly

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since Sep 10, 2015
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moving to St Albans, ME next spring to homestead with my partner on 40 acres
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Recent posts by R Manly

Hey dog owners,

I wanted to give everyone a heads up about Dilated Cardiomyopathy. It's shaken up the dog world in the last few years with an explosion in cases, with many cases tied to diet. Unfortunately, grain-free/homemade/raw diets may sometimes the culprit. I'm a dog trainer and I had a client almost lose her dog to DCM, she had been on homemade food for years and the client switched her to the grungy old veterinarian recommended corn byproduct crap - and after about a year, she is 100% clear for DCM.

I found this really discouraging, because that crap in the bag we all know the ingredients are NOT the level of quality we want to feed to our dogs. But DCM will sure as hell kill them, and I'd rather buy Science Diet or whatever than do homemade without the guidance of a veterinary nutritionist. You can absolutely still do homemade, but be aware of what the signs of DCM are and get your dogs tested regularly to make sure the feeding protocol is working for them.

Here's a decent article giving 3 veterinarians opinions on how to feed based on the so far inconclusive investigation into DCM and diet: https://nutrition.tripawds.com/2018/08/06/grain-free-kibble-and-canine-heart-disease/

If you are looking for a commercial food that has animal studies backing up its safety, look for the line “Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that (name of product) provides complete and balanced nutrition”
They're not necessarily a large sample size on those studies, but at least they're proven that 6 months of the food as the sole diet keeps the dogs in good shape with good bloodwork.

Be well y'all
3 years ago
Hey there,

I am so, so sorry about your dogs. I realize it's been a while since you posted this but it's floated back up. I felt the need to contribute due to seeing some myths about dogs in here that I wanted to correct.

I've been using the Koehler Method of Dog Training since 2010 to help reform problem dogs. So that's why I feel my opinion is worth something.

If a reader doesn't want to read my whole post, as least read this: animal aggression is NOT the same as human aggression. prey aggression is NOT the same as dog aggression. While any dog may have one or a combination or all of these types of behavior, they are NOT a slippery slope that inevitably leads to another! Your dog knows the difference between a possum and a human baby. A dog may attack livestock, dogs, and humans, or they may only have an issue with other dogs, or only an issue with people. It completely depends on the individual dog and their motivations. Particularly with prey chasing and killing, this is a natural, normal dog behavior! We (rightly) tend not to assume that a dog that enjoys chasing squirrels is next going to attack your toddler. That's not how it works. If you have a high drive dog that has not been taught that children are not to be interacted with as prey, that's another story. But your dog that normally has great manners with children and then kills a chicken is not going to suddenly decide they'd like to try human flesh.

As you've already gathered I'm sure, it all depends on the dog. Some people here have gotten a whole lot of mileage out of working with their dogs to change how they view livestock. Personally I wouldn't ever leave a non-livestock guardian alone with livestock, ever - unless they'd been raised with the livestock since puppyhood and had zero red flags at a mature age. I would count "alone" as being outside together without a human present, since goats and dogs are great at overcoming the challenges of most fencing. If you're not there to remind them what they ought not to do, I wouldn't rely on them to make the right choice. Instinct is a powerful motivator - THE most powerful motivator.

Here is an article called "The Misbehavior of Organisms". It's long, but recommended reading for anyone interested in training any animal. The point enclosed is that despite teaching various species of animals to reliably perform a behavior for reward, eventually each species would cease to do the trained behavior in favor of doing an instinctual behavior that got them no tangible reward. (a pig did "rooting" behavior, a raccoon did "washing" behavior, and a chicken pecked incessantly at a small moving object) It illustrates how instinctual behavior is more rewarding to the animal than anything we could ever reward them with. http://www.niu.edu/user/tj0dgw1/pdf/learning/breland.pdf

Which is not to say that animals can't be taught to abandon those behaviors, but that it is never going to be something that is totally fixed with a positive reinforcement only approach. As I said before, there is nothing we as humans can give them that is more satisfying that killing a chicken or chasing prey or what have you. There has to be a negative consequence for the bad behavior, in addition to teaching the animal an alternate option to chasing/killing (like - being on a "stay" until they learn self control)

I would definitely recommend working with a professional trainer on this, it's not a simple fix.

I would say two huge factors in your scenario is that you were away, and that the goats were babies.

I trained a dog that was menacing people in their foster person's home. I never had a single problem with him and other people, because from day one he was made to understand that I was the leader and in charge of who got to do what. I rehomed him with someone that didn't fully understand the importance of that - she just saw him cuddling with strangers at the park and didn't listen to the rest, I suppose - and did not continue using his training, and he bit someone in her home. He got rehomed with someone with experience with assertive dogs like him, and she never had a single problem with him. It seems like your dogs had a rapport with you that they did not have with their farm sitter. I completely agree with a previous poster's recommendation of boarding them when you're away. Alternatively a very tall chain link enclosure that is sunk into the ground to prevent digging could be used as an place for them to romp with the pet sitter, any kind of k9 alcatraz that lets them get outside time without any access to approaching the goat fencing.

I came home one day to find all eight of our sheep and goats outside their pen with one missing. Turned out the neighbor dog had scared them so bad they trampled down the electric netting and chased one of the sheep deep into the woods (we found her alive and well, thank god). With less aggressive dogs, our horned doe had no qualms about showing them why they ought to leave the goats alone.

And, dogs that have issues with livestock are the most reasonable to rehome. Folks that live in the city likely won't ever have to deal with the fact that their dog is a baby goat killer. As long as you're completely honest about all of the dogs history, you're in the clear. I was able to rehab a confirmed cat assassin (this dog would HUNT cats - silently stalk until she was close enough to grab) after a lot of training. She got to the point where she could be in the same room as a cat and relaxed enough to greet people and get pets rather than fixating on the cat. She lived with me in a house with two cats without incident. BUT, that's because I watched her like a hawk and was training her every moment she was in sight of a cat. She was rehomed with a family without cats and they received training on how to handle her, and they understand the responsibility they have to keep up her training. So it's possible, but it depends on how much work you're willing to put into it.

Also have to put in a plug for pit bulls - they're all individuals. While they are certainly a more high drive dog that generally enjoys a good scrap, my friend's pit was raised on his farm with hogs and chickens. at 4 years old he occasionally enjoys scaring the chickens (he'll run at them until they scatter, and then he walks off, laughing to himself I assume) but has never hurt one. he did attack a pig once, but only that once. He clearly *wants* to go after the pigs but he knows he ought not to, and despite being unsupervised loose on the farm has never gone after even a piglet since his one incidence. Personally I wouldn't take the chance but his owner does and it's worked out for him.
6 years ago
Our little guy is one month old. We are keeping him for meat, and would like him to keep those growth hormones in his testes as long as possible, without him breeding his sister.

I've read over and over how a buckling as young as 3 months can breed a doe, and how a doe as young as 5 months can be impregnated.

But HOW? Would this only apply to breeds who come into heat year round, or when the doe is in heat? Wouldn't you be safe to leave your boy intact until August, before any of your girls come into heat?

Is it humane to Burdizzo a boy after he's 8 weeks?

thanks, all!
8 years ago
Susan - I misunderstood - I don't think we could afford to pay someone to stay at our place and I don't think you'd want to house sit for us - no running water or electricity at our place and it's in reaaal rough shape (turns out houses don't like being abandoned for 15 years). I've never heard of goat boarding but I'm hoping it exists out there somewhere!

Thank you though! I will keep you in mind for the future.

I'd looked at the SMDGA before but couldn't find a list of farms but I see a little ad page on one of their tabs, now - I'm going to try contacting those people.
9 years ago
Susan,

what's your schedule looking like in mid-november to mid-december? also...you don't happen to have a dairy buck we could board them with, do you? the diciest thing with the time frame of our schedule is getting the goats bred. we don't need any fancy schmancy buck this year, just somebody who will make some healthy dairy breed kids. it'd be damned convenient if you happened to have a guy up at your place!
9 years ago
Susan, awesome! Where are you in VT? I'd like to find somewhere closer if possible just to minimize driving time but that might be doable.

Ann, good idea! I was looking at semen donors and hardly any of them talk about actual milk *production*. As someone from the dog world where a confirmation show win means literally nothing about the health and integrity of the animal, I am naturally suspicious of show animals. But perhaps dairy goat showing has a closer relationship to function than a show dog?
9 years ago
Yeah I don't really trust craigslist to find a place to board our girls - finding a buck for stud or goats for sale, sure, but I'd rather find someone in person for someone caretaking our animals. There's a livestock swap coming up locally, hoping we might find someone there for either or both needs, or even posting something up at the hardware store. I just know that people troll craigslist looking to exploit people & animals.

Same - I come from a dog rescue background and the best way to make sure an animal keeps their new home is being totally honest about what someone is getting themselves in for. I'd rather hear that an animal is obnoxious in some ways than that they're perfect - I trust that a lot more!

Thank you!
9 years ago
Hi there,

I'm in St Albans, ME and am looking to find a place to board our 2 does for a month (or two?) this winter. Willing to drive a bit to find a good place. Know anyone or are you yourself equipped for such a task? Let me know!

-Renee
9 years ago
That's good to know that there *are* goat keepers out there willing to board. Somehow hadn't even thought of craigslist, even though that's how we found one of our girls.

Thank you, Thekla!

9 years ago
Hi there!

Very excited to join this forum - so much great information and great people on here!

We have two does that we are planning on breeding this fall, but are having a hell of a time finding a buck. How do y'all find your bucks?

Also, I am in Oregon and my partner is in Maine on the farm with the goats - we are trying to get him out to Oregon for a month or two this winter to work and visit, but that means we'll need to do something with our (hopefully pregnant) girls. Do you think it's reasonable to hope we could pay someone to incorporate our girls into their herd and care for them while we're gone? I figure, if you've got goats already, what's two more to look after?

Thank you,
Renee
9 years ago