Most efficient meat to raise for dog food?

We have two Great Pyrenees LGDs and I'd like to start raising our own "dog food" for a raw diet. Right now we're spending about $90/month on grain-free kibble because I haven't decided on a reliable source of homegrown food for them. What would you say is the most efficient method? Chickens? Quail? Fish? Rabbits? Rate of production and quantity will be important with two very large dogs - for instance with chickens they would need a good sized one every single day. Or I guess I could raise a ton at once and process and freeze? Anyone want to share their best self-sustainable methods for this?

The most efficient meat to raise for dog food [or any food] depends on how you're quantifying efficient.

Are you quantifying it by cost? By time investment? By land requirements?

If you've got the space for them, a small sheep flock of small to midsize sheep with enough paddocks to move them weekly and not overgraze [plan to come back in two months] is pretty time and cash efficient, but it does burn a lot of land.


If you tell us your landbase, climate and soils [and the sort of people around you if you aren't rural] it will help us make personalized suggestions.

Good point. By efficient I'm thinking space constraints/resources used, and also rate of production - makes the most meat the fastest, since they will require quite a bit of it. I definitely don't have space to graze sheep. We have woodland, good for goats, but not near enough grassy area to graze a flock of sheep, even a small one, with that being their sole sustenance. We're pretty rural, and people around are on the same wavelength so neighbors aren't an issue, we have about 2.5 acres (weird layout for traditional pastures though), northeast US climate.

By Northeast are we talking Mountains of Maine or Lowlands of Pennsylvania [or somewhere in between.] USDA growing zone is a pretty accurate indicator for the East Coast region.

On 2.5 acres you actually definitely DO have the space for a small flock, especially if your soil if good. Soay are a more primitive breed that likes browse more than most. Alternatively, if you felt you could do better with goats Pigmy Goats are pretty small and easy to manage [and don't require a massive amount of storage space for the meat.]

One nice thing about feeding dogs on livestock is that they're pretty happy with all the things we don't want.

If you want to reserve that space for orchards or gardens [and don't want to integrate pasture between either] then you might want to economize space the most possible, which is rabbits [and Quail, though they are more expensive to feed than rabbits.]

Consider deer hunting. Best organic non GMO animal protein available. I save all the trimmings and freeze them in portions. Also consider befriendling local hunters and butchers. They might become a source of trimmings also.

Zone 5b, northwest CT. We have good soil, rich woodland, but that 2.5 acres is not all usable grassy space, it is sloping heavily wooded areas interrupted by a long wide driveway and a large house/deck/garage/pool. I like the idea of Soay sheep, and I've thought of getting a couple mostly for their wool, but I can't imagine how I could possibly raise enough, sustainably, in my space to feed several pounds of meat to the dogs every single day. That's a lot sheep and a lot of a) browsing b) supplemental winter feeding c) butchering and processing which is obviously way more involved than say a chicken, even if you're not fully dressing out a carcass for human consumption. I'd love to hear your ideas about how it might be done though!

Hunting is a great idea - we get venison and pheasant and wild goose from some hunters every year, who hunt on my grandparents land in exchange for a portion of the meat. I don't have the time to take it up myself, but there are plenty of people around that I bet I could ask for trimmings. I'll look into that!

You don't have enough time to hunt... but you want to take up raising meat as an alternative?

Yeah, cage rabbits or cage quail is my suggestion. Quick and simple daily chore that requires very little time investment. Once it's up and running it's practically automatic.

A good dual purpose laying flock can provide a fair bit of meat and eggs for the dogs. Get a nice dual purpose flock going. Keep broody hens and let them do the work of raising chicks for you. Feed the males and older hens to the dogs. Don't overlook the value of eggs for the dogs themselves. Mine get eggs when I have extra...or don't want to clean dirty eggs, or find a hidden stash I'm not sure how old they are. I just drop the whole egg, shells and all in their bowl. An egg or two every day would be a nice supplement to your Pyrenees diet. If you're keeping chickens anyway a few more hens so the dogs can get their share isn't really any more work.

I think I'd also do rabbits. A handful of does and a buck will keep you in baby bunnies pretty much year round. I've not raised meat rabbits personally but know several people that do and know that they can produce quite a bit of meat. An advantage of rabbits is you can keep them breeding year round and so could keep them live until its time to feed rather than raising and butchering something like ducks or chickens in a batch or a larger animal that has to be butchered and process in one go and then meat has to be frozen or canned. If you're feeding them to the dogs fresh you wouldn't need to do much for processing, just kill and skin.

If I was trying to feed my dogs entirely I'd likely do a mix. Chickens and ducks. Let the animals raise their own chicks on summer forage, then pick off a handful of the males each week through the fall and early winter. Keep the hens over the winter and feed their eggs. Main winter source of meat I think would be rabbits. Easy to keep in cages and so don't need too much space to keep a breeding batch all winter.

Also consider fish. An aquaponic system with some fast growing fish can be pretty efficient. It's another food source that can be kept live and running year round (if you have a protected area like a greenhouse to set it up in). Plus you can just net a few fish and throw them to the dogs whole...no need for butchering and storing. If you didn't want to keep the system heated and running all winter you could have a few outdoor pools or tanks growing out fish all summer, drain them before winter, and just freeze the fish whole. No need to fillet or even gut. Thaw out and feed the whole fish as needed all winter.

I don't know how you personally feel about starches for dogs. I think some types, like potatoes are ok in moderation. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams are pretty easy to grow and store well. Pumpkins and squash are another option. They do need to be cooked but boiling a big pot once or twice a week isn't that much work and could be a supplement to the diet especially in winter.
When I make up my canned dog food I usually add about 10% veggies. Potatoes, carrots, green beans, peas are some I use.

This is a great thread! I had not even thought about raising food for my dogs. (I have 3) I really like the idea of rabbits. How many does would I need to supply them year round? I don't know about the chickens though, it has been my experience that when a dog gets a taste for raw chicken the coop is no longer safe.

With the dogs it's all about the training. Train them very seriously from day one that the chickens are part of the family to be protected. [This obviously varies by breed, I'm not sure you can pull it off with a terrier for example]

As for does per dog, I'll leave those calculations to people who have practical experience raising meat rabbits.

I've read that freezing the chicken prior to feeding it takes away the idea that it was a live bird at one point in time. Not sure there is any merit in that but something to look into.

I also agree with everything said on raising chickens for meat. You could even get an incubator (be careful, it's addicting) and raise your own chicks year round. If you get breeds that create sex-links, you could sell the pullets for a bit of extra cash(I never have any trouble selling extra) and keep the roos for the dogs. Keep a couple hens for eggs and future chicks. If you free range them the feed bill isn't too high and selling chicks or eggs basically covers that. Very easy to maintain, I open the coop doors in the morning, give them a scoop of food, close the door at night.

You could also look into meat birds like the Cornish cross. You have to buy these as chicks since they are generally too fat to breed on their own. But for about $3 each, they are ready in 6-9 weeks and dress out at about 4-6lbs. I have never raised these but from what I hear they can be pretty gross (like filthy-gross).

I have 3 dogs, a Pyreneen Mountain Dog, a Border Collie and a Belgian Shepherd Tervuren. Raising meat for them has been something that I have thought about a lot and I think that when it does come to it I will go for Guinea pigs. I think that for me they are easier to raise then rabbits and breed like, well,,, faster then rabbits. Also my dogs just love the critters I have trapped that resemble your pocket gophers. They eat them fur, bones and all and guinea pigs look similar in size and shape.

However, for the time being, I get trimmings and bones from the local butcher for free, bits and pieces from local hunters and stuff from the dispatching on the farm. My border collie's favourite is a chicken head! I do not feed them on meat alone as dogs actually have a varied diet; in the autumn I have a hard time keeping them off the walnuts and berries. My lot love apples and pears even bananas (when I used to buy them a long time ago).

Every 3 days, I cook a big pot of brown rice and add anything that is around like, pulses, vegetable peels, old bits of bread, then I will add raw meat, raw eggs, cheese rinds, sour milk, scraps etc... (not all at once). I don't give them the eggs with the shell, as I don't want them to recognise it as something they could pilfer from the egg box.

Pyreneen Mountain dogs never used to be fed everyday and a long time ago, when they were in the high pastures for the summer, the shepherd often only fed them sheep milk and bread. They were quite happy to supplement their diet with the odd wild rabbit, wood cock or mountain hare.

Olga Booker wrote:Pyreneen Mountain dogs never used to be fed everyday and a long time ago, when they were in the high pastures for the summer, the shepherd often only fed them sheep milk and bread. They were quite happy to supplement their diet with the odd wild rabbit, wood cock or mountain hare.

That's how all the sheepdogs I knew as a child were fed - milky bread and whatever they could catch. Plus, presumably, the entrails of any home-butchered animals, but as a kid I was mostly shielded from that.

Miranda Converse wrote:
You could also look into meat birds like the Cornish cross.

I wouldn't do Cornish Cross because they need special feed or they die.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Miranda Converse wrote:
You could also look into meat birds like the Cornish cross.

I wouldn't do Cornish Cross because they need special feed or they die.

I haven't heard that before but I haven't done too much research into them. They do have lots of health problems due to their unnatural weight and uncleanly habits. I would prefer raising healthy birds that are capable of reproducing on their own instead of being artificially inseminated anyway. It was just an idea for if someone wanted a quick turnaround of meat and didn't want to fuss with hatching their own...

TO: Em Kellner
FROM: Eric Koperek = erickoperek@gmail.com
SUBJECT: Feeding Dogs
DATE: PM 6:13 Wednesday 17 February 2016
TEXT:

1. The most "efficient" meat for dog food is the kind you DON'T have to produce yourself. My Father's relatives have been raising dogs for 800 years. We've learned a few things over the centuries. Take advantage of our experience.

2. Dogs do not need an all-meat or predominantly meat diet. Nor do they need raw meat. What they do need is lots of calories, especially if they live and work outside. Make sure your dogs get at least 20% animal fat or vegetable oil in their diet.

3. Dog bread has been produced by farmers and bakers since the Middle Ages. Back then, dog bread came in the form of big round loaves. Today, we call it kibble = twice baked bread. Take your old bread and dry it in a very slow oven = 200 degrees Fahrenheit overnight. Store in an airtight container.

4. Dogs will grow well on whatever you eat. Table scraps and kibble with a little extra fat or oil will keep your hounds in good condition.

5. Make friends with your local dairy farmer. Milk and kibble make great dog food. (The idea is to let some other fool do the work; your time is too valuable to waste raising meat for dog food).

6. Find the nearest river. Check with your State Fish & Game police. Wait for the next spawning run of whatever species is most common in your area. Take all the fish your law allows. When I lived in Saskatchewan we caught "suckers" = a big, bony fish much like carp. Run them whole (scales, bones, and all) through a meat grinder and portion into 1 or 2 pound blocks. Store in plastic bags in big chest freezers. 1 or 2 days fishing will provide all the "dog meat" you need for a year. If you do not live too far from the sea, make a deal with local fishermen to buy their "scrap" = junk fish. Buy the boat a case of beer and they will fill your pick-up truck with fish. Extra fish make great garden fertilizer.

7. I raise beagles for hunters, a high-price specialty market. I feed my beagles live rabbits. Every other day I toss a rabbit over the fence, 1 rabbit per dog. I don't necessarily recommend this for farm dogs but it raises healthy hounds that want to hunt. Note: If feeding raw meat always worm your dogs every 6 months.

8. Rabbits are really easy to raise but it is even more efficient to trap or snare them. There is an enormous population of wild rabbits. Just dump some food on the ground and set your snares. If you set up feeding sites you will always have plenty of rabbits.

9. Buying dog meat is often cheaper than trying to raise it yourself. For example, I can buy chicken leg quarters locally for $0.59 per pound (retail price), and about $0.40 per pound (wholesale price). I can also purchase mixed frozen vegetables for $0.54 per pound. Chicken and mixed vegetables will grow any kind of dog for about $1.00 per day. Bake the chicken at 350 degrees Fahrenheit in a covered roasting pan for 2 hours.

10. Make friends with your local grocer, butcher, and baker. I get chicken skins, chicken fat, chicken bones, and other scraps for $0.19 per pound. I buy stale bread for $0.25 a loaf. I bake bread in a wood fired brick oven. I trade bread with my local wholesale butcher in exchange for bones. I get all the bones I need for a commercial kennel plus enough bones to fertilize a 1-acre market garden.

11. I noticed a previous comment on Guinea Pigs. I have traveled throughout the Andes and highly recommend guinea pigs as good eating. As an added benefit, they are much more productive than rabbits and easier to raise than chickens. Chickens are my last choice for raising dog meat because of the stink, mess, and effort grow them. Besides, you want your dogs to protect your flock, not eat them. It's real hard to train a dog not to hunt chicken if you feed them chickens, especially raw chickens (which I do not recommend).

12. You can make your own dog biscuits out of whole wheat flour, whole eggs (including shells), milk, and salt. (Process eggs in a blender to grind up shells). You can add 10% to 20% (by flour weight) chicken or other grease = cooked fat to the biscuit dough at your discretion. No yeast or baking powder is necessary. Dough does not need to raise. Extrude dough into rods or bars then cut and place on parchment lined baking trays. Bake in a moderate = 350 degree Fahrenheit oven until lightly browned then dry in a 200 degree Fahrenheit oven overnight until crisp. Store in air-tight containers.

13. For more information on old-fashioned "biological" farming please visit: www.agriculturesolutions.wordpress.com -- or -- www.worldagriculturesolutions.wordpress.com -- or -- send your questions to: Agriculture Solutions, 413 Cedar Drive, Moon Township, Pennsylvania, 15108 USA -- or -- send an e-mail to: erickoperek@gmail.com

Kyrt Ryder wrote:You don't have enough time to hunt... but you want to take up raising meat as an alternative?

Yeah, cage rabbits or cage quail is my suggestion. Quick and simple daily chore that requires very little time investment. Once it's up and running it's practically automatic.

I have 3 children 6 and under, Kyrt. I have plenty of time to spend in my backyard tending animals with the little ones in earshot, and a grand total of zero time to go off alone on hunting trips. We already raise meat, but not in the quantity that would be necessary to achieve a closed loop dog feeding system, so yes, I can confirm that I don't have enough time to hunt, but can raise meat at home as an alternative. Do quail hatch out their own eggs? I think that rabbits would be a good solution too, my husband however will take some convincing. Any breeds that you recommend?

Chris Sargent wrote:A good dual purpose laying flock can provide a fair bit of meat and eggs for the dogs. Get a nice dual purpose flock going. Keep broody hens and let them do the work of raising chicks for you. Feed the males and older hens to the dogs. Don't overlook the value of eggs for the dogs themselves. Mine get eggs when I have extra...or don't want to clean dirty eggs, or find a hidden stash I'm not sure how old they are. I just drop the whole egg, shells and all in their bowl. An egg or two every day would be a nice supplement to your Pyrenees diet. If you're keeping chickens anyway a few more hens so the dogs can get their share isn't really any more work.

I think I'd also do rabbits. A handful of does and a buck will keep you in baby bunnies pretty much year round. I've not raised meat rabbits personally but know several people that do and know that they can produce quite a bit of meat. An advantage of rabbits is you can keep them breeding year round and so could keep them live until its time to feed rather than raising and butchering something like ducks or chickens in a batch or a larger animal that has to be butchered and process in one go and then meat has to be frozen or canned. If you're feeding them to the dogs fresh you wouldn't need to do much for processing, just kill and skin.

If I was trying to feed my dogs entirely I'd likely do a mix. Chickens and ducks. Let the animals raise their own chicks on summer forage, then pick off a handful of the males each week through the fall and early winter. Keep the hens over the winter and feed their eggs. Main winter source of meat I think would be rabbits. Easy to keep in cages and so don't need too much space to keep a breeding batch all winter.

Also consider fish. An aquaponic system with some fast growing fish can be pretty efficient. It's another food source that can be kept live and running year round (if you have a protected area like a greenhouse to set it up in). Plus you can just net a few fish and throw them to the dogs whole...no need for butchering and storing. If you didn't want to keep the system heated and running all winter you could have a few outdoor pools or tanks growing out fish all summer, drain them before winter, and just freeze the fish whole. No need to fillet or even gut. Thaw out and feed the whole fish as needed all winter.

I don't know how you personally feel about starches for dogs. I think some types, like potatoes are ok in moderation. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams are pretty easy to grow and store well. Pumpkins and squash are another option. They do need to be cooked but boiling a big pot once or twice a week isn't that much work and could be a supplement to the diet especially in winter.
When I make up my canned dog food I usually add about 10% veggies. Potatoes, carrots, green beans, peas are some I use.

Thanks Chris, this is great info! Do you have any resources to recommend on aquaponics? It's something I'm familiar with in concept, but haven't explored actually implementing. I think that growing our poultry flock will definitely be a big part of the solution! We plan to grow mangelwurzels for the goats (those big old fodder beets), so that might be something to give to the dogs to for starch at the same time.

Miranda Converse wrote:I've read that freezing the chicken prior to feeding it takes away the idea that it was a live bird at one point in time. Not sure there is any merit in that but something to look into.

I also agree with everything said on raising chickens for meat. You could even get an incubator (be careful, it's addicting) and raise your own chicks year round. If you get breeds that create sex-links, you could sell the pullets for a bit of extra cash(I never have any trouble selling extra) and keep the roos for the dogs. Keep a couple hens for eggs and future chicks. If you free range them the feed bill isn't too high and selling chicks or eggs basically covers that. Very easy to maintain, I open the coop doors in the morning, give them a scoop of food, close the door at night.

You could also look into meat birds like the Cornish cross. You have to buy these as chicks since they are generally too fat to breed on their own. But for about $3 each, they are ready in 6-9 weeks and dress out at about 4-6lbs. I have never raised these but from what I hear they can be pretty gross (like filthy-gross).

We have chickens now, so adding to that flock would be pretty easy! Someone on a local group here was just posting about a different variety of meat bird, a newer mixed breed that isn't Cornish Cross, that are supposed to be good foragers and much healthier, but also dress out pretty quick. If they can breed they might be a great option to start with for the dogs now that I think about it.

Em Kellner wrote:

Kyrt Ryder wrote:You don't have enough time to hunt... but you want to take up raising meat as an alternative?

Yeah, cage rabbits or cage quail is my suggestion. Quick and simple daily chore that requires very little time investment. Once it's up and running it's practically automatic.

I have 3 children 6 and under, Kyrt. I have plenty of time to spend in my backyard tending animals with the little ones in earshot, and a grand total of zero time to go off alone on hunting trips. We already raise meat, but not in the quantity that would be necessary to achieve a closed loop dog feeding system, so yes, I can confirm that I don't have enough time to hunt, but can raise meat at home as an alternative. Do quail hatch out their own eggs? I think that rabbits would be a good solution too, my husband however will take some convincing. Any breeds that you recommend?

Oh, that makes sense.

My apologies, I was assuming something like a packed work + education schedule rather than raising a family at home.

Quail usually don't hatch their own eggs [though a forum member is experimenting with encouraging them to do so in another thread here] but they aren't difficult to incubate from everything I've read and been told.

I'm actually interested in expanding my own operations to include Quail this year.

EDIT: Here's a link to the thread I mentioned about Broody Quail .

Em Kellner wrote:Someone on a local group here was just posting about a different variety of meat bird, a newer mixed breed that isn't Cornish Cross, that are supposed to be good foragers and much healthier, but also dress out pretty quick. If they can breed they might be a great option to start with for the dogs now that I think about it.

Red Rangers/ Freedom Rangers are indeed more healthy and better able to reproduce than Cornish Cross, but they're still a complicated hybrid.

If you're interested in a Chicken breeding project you could attempt to stabilize those traits into a breed, but it's going to take numerous generations. [In plant breeding I've read it takes 7 or 8 generations to dehybridize, not sure about livestock.]

A few random thoughts....not recommending any of this....

Not the most pleasant thing perhaps, but depending on where you live and what the local wildlife and road conditions are, would road-kill be viable? Around here I could gather enough for a whole pack of dogs all year long. Little to no cash input (gas?) and very little time involved. I'd check the laws first and probably plan to cook anything gathered to be on the safe side.

Another source might be any commercial chicken/turkey/hog farms near by. They all have animals die every day that have to be disposed of (bury, compost, burn), maybe you could collect them for the dogs. A lot of them have reduced/eliminated the hormones and meds of the past, but I'd still ask if going this route.

I've been feeding a raw, home prepared diet for 17 years and I think the best diet is pretty much what YOU eat, as long as you have a decent diet. More protein and fat, less fruit, a lot less grain, no sugar. A big raw, meaty bone to chew on. Dogs got fed this way for thousands of years and did very well

Kyrt Ryder wrote:

Em Kellner wrote:

Kyrt Ryder wrote:You don't have enough time to hunt... but you want to take up raising meat as an alternative?

Yeah, cage rabbits or cage quail is my suggestion. Quick and simple daily chore that requires very little time investment. Once it's up and running it's practically automatic.

I have 3 children 6 and under, Kyrt. I have plenty of time to spend in my backyard tending animals with the little ones in earshot, and a grand total of zero time to go off alone on hunting trips. We already raise meat, but not in the quantity that would be necessary to achieve a closed loop dog feeding system, so yes, I can confirm that I don't have enough time to hunt, but can raise meat at home as an alternative. Do quail hatch out their own eggs? I think that rabbits would be a good solution too, my husband however will take some convincing. Any breeds that you recommend?

Oh, that makes sense.

My apologies, I was assuming something like a packed work + education schedule rather than raising a family at home.

Quail usually don't hatch their own eggs [though a forum member is experimenting with encouraging them to do so in another thread here] but they aren't difficult to incubate from everything I've read and been told.

I'm actually interested in expanding my own operations to include Quail this year.

EDIT: Here's a link to the thread I mentioned about Broody Quail .

That quail thread is awesome! I don't have a lot of interest in incubating, but I would love to get some quail and experiment like that.

The most common breeds of meat rabbits are California or New Zealand. They dress out nicely at 6 to 8 weeks old. If you do decide to feed rabbits, be aware that you may need to add more fat to your dogs diet. Rabbits don't have very much.

Em Kellner wrote:

Thanks Chris, this is great info! Do you have any resources to recommend on aquaponics? It's something I'm familiar with in concept, but haven't explored actually implementing.

Not really, I've looked into it a bit but not in any depth. I know there are lots of different ways to set them up, much depends upon you ultimate goal. Do you want to primarily want to raise fish, do you want to raise plant hydroponically with the fish just a minor component, do you want to water a greenhouse or grow beds with fish waste, etc. I've thought the ecosystem model where you raise rabbits over a tank, fish eat the rabbit waste, water greenhouse plants with fish waste, feed plants to rabbits. You (or your dogs) get to eat the rabbits, fish, and plants. Just something I've though about doing someday...

eric koperek wrote:TO:     Em Kellner
FROM:     Eric Koperek = erickoperek@gmail.com
SUBJECT:     Feeding Dogs
DATE:     PM 6:13 Wednesday 17 February 2016
TEXT:

1.     The most "efficient" meat for dog food is the kind you DON'T have to produce yourself.  My Father's relatives have been raising dogs for 800 years.  We've learned a few things over the centuries.  Take advantage of our experience.

2.     Dogs do not need an all-meat or predominantly meat diet.  Nor do they need raw meat.  What they do need is lots of calories, especially if they live and work outside.  Make sure your dogs get at least 20% animal fat or vegetable oil in their diet.

3.     Dog bread has been produced by farmers and bakers since the Middle Ages.  Back then, dog bread came in the form of big round loaves.  Today, we call it kibble = twice baked bread.  Take your old bread and dry it in a very slow oven = 200 degrees Fahrenheit overnight.  Store in an airtight container.

4.     Dogs will grow well on whatever you eat.  Table scraps and kibble with a little extra fat or oil will keep your hounds in good condition.

5.     Make friends with your local dairy farmer.  Milk and kibble make great dog food.  (The idea is to let some other fool do the work; your time is too valuable to waste raising meat for dog food).

6.     Find the nearest river.  Check with your State Fish & Game police.  Wait for the next spawning run of whatever species is most common in your area.  Take all the fish your law allows.  When I lived in Saskatchewan we caught "suckers" = a big, bony fish much like carp.  Run them whole (scales, bones, and all) through a meat grinder and portion into 1 or 2 pound blocks.  Store in plastic bags in big chest freezers.  1 or 2 days fishing will provide all the "dog meat" you need for a year.  If you do not live too far from the sea, make a deal with local fishermen to buy their "scrap" = junk fish.  Buy the boat a case of beer and they will fill your pick-up truck with fish.  Extra fish make great garden fertilizer.

7.     I raise beagles for hunters, a high-price specialty market.  I feed my beagles live rabbits.  Every other day I toss a rabbit over the fence, 1 rabbit per dog.  I don't necessarily recommend this for farm dogs but it raises healthy hounds that want to hunt.  Note:  If feeding raw meat always worm your dogs every 6 months.

8.     Rabbits are really easy to raise but it is even more efficient to trap or snare them.  There is an enormous population of wild rabbits.  Just dump some food on the ground and set your snares.  If you set up feeding sites you will always have plenty of rabbits.

9.     Buying dog meat is often cheaper than trying to raise it yourself.  For example, I can buy chicken leg quarters locally for $0.59 per pound (retail price), and about $0.40 per pound (wholesale price).  I can also purchase mixed frozen vegetables for $0.54 per pound.  Chicken and mixed vegetables will grow any kind of dog for about $1.00 per day.  Bake the chicken at 350 degrees Fahrenheit in a covered roasting pan for 2 hours.

10.     Make friends with your local grocer, butcher, and baker.  I get chicken skins, chicken fat, chicken bones, and other scraps for $0.19 per pound.  I buy stale bread for $0.25 a loaf.  I bake bread in a wood fired brick oven.  I trade bread with my local wholesale butcher in exchange for bones.  I get all the bones I need for a commercial kennel plus enough bones to fertilize a 1-acre market garden.

11.     I noticed a previous comment on Guinea Pigs.  I have traveled throughout the Andes and highly recommend guinea pigs as good eating.  As an added benefit, they are much more productive than rabbits and easier to raise than chickens.  Chickens are my last choice for raising dog meat because of the stink, mess, and effort grow them.  Besides, you want your dogs to protect your flock, not eat them.  It's real hard to train a dog not to hunt chicken if you feed them chickens, especially raw chickens (which I do not recommend).

12.     You can make your own dog biscuits out of whole wheat flour, whole eggs (including shells), milk, and salt.  (Process eggs in a blender to grind up shells).  You can add 10% to 20% (by flour weight) chicken or other grease = cooked fat to the biscuit dough at your discretion.  No yeast or baking powder is necessary.  Dough does not need to raise.  Extrude dough into rods or bars then cut and place on parchment lined baking trays.  Bake in a moderate = 350 degree Fahrenheit oven until lightly browned then dry in a 200 degree Fahrenheit oven overnight until crisp.  Store in air-tight containers.

13.     For more information on old-fashioned "biological" farming please visit:     www.agriculturesolutions.wordpress.com  -- or -- www.worldagriculturesolutions.wordpress.com  -- or -- send your questions to:     Agriculture Solutions, 413 Cedar Drive, Moon Township, Pennsylvania, 15108 USA  -- or -- send an e-mail to:     erickoperek@gmail.com

           

I like Eric's advice. I have been making homemade pet food for over 12 years. My original recipe was vet approved but I have changed it up so much since. I lived in the city/town for many of those years and did what he said. Got to know the butcher in our community and got free fat and scrapes/bones. I actually put chicken bones through a heavy duty meat grinder.
Once on our homestead, I bought old laying hens from a local free-range place that sold their chickens off after they were a certain age. Usually 1.5 years old to 2.5 years old. We did those up and again everything went through the meat grinder, bones, fat, skin meat.

I make cat and dog food and it is so true that dogs do not need a meat diet. They can get high protein from grinding peas into flour, from nutritional yeast from the proteins in grains and mostly like Eric said they need a high-fat diet. It is this fat that gives them their carbs and energy.

When it comes to pets I realize here in Canada you can actually be spending like 100.00 or more a month to buy crap for dog food, I do not trust any processed pet food, or you can make your own. If raising meat for your own it really consumes so much time and last year I realized it simply is not worth it. Before I go on I will say I do not believe in locking rabbits in tiny cages. I do believe if you are going to raise your own animals other then buying as I did from a local farmer, I believe rabbits will be the fastest and easiest to look after. Only I would build a large natural habitat for them that allows you access. Something that allows them to burrow without digging their way out. Dig a hole and then put chicken wire in the hole and up around the sides then fence it in to keep rabbits in and predators out. Now you can simply butcher a rabbit when you need them. So no need for a freezer or butcher a lot at one time and you are done for awhile. Rabbits are so much easier to clean up than any other animal. As long as you have a lot of grass and grow a lot of greens they are cheap to feed. Buy a bale or 2 of alfalfa and you are good to go.

I use a pressure cooker and cook up gmo-free local grains as farm feed so it is cheap. I cook that up. I grind up, turn into flour, field peas. I let the cooked grains cool, add ground flax, pea flour, nutritional yeast, ground and crushed eggshells, lots of oil if I can not get free fat, ground up carrots, zucchini or pumpkin, any type of winter squash( I find zucchini the easiest to grow and next to that butternut squash) and a few sunchokes. All the vegetables are raw. I make a big batch and freeze it and it lasts me 10 days. so I only do this 3 times a month. As for the cats they need meat and when my meat runs out If they feel they need meat well they will go after squirrels, mice etc. So I am not concerned. Remember a homestead life should be made as easy as possible. No need to make more work then necessary.

 I have a few words about raising rabbits, quail, ducks and chickens for meat. BTDT. Each of those endeavors require certain basics, and the best place to start is with good books. When the critters are concentrated into small areas for maximum production, good feed and care is essential. Rabbits don't breed like rabbits if they don't have consistent quality feeds - and if they are raised in dark areas such as common in northern states in winter. I got the needed litters by using assisted daylight to keep them at 14-16 hours of light per day, especially in mornings. However, I lost many winter litters due to the cold or inexperienced does not making proper nests in nest boxes. I learned to skip February kindlings for the sake of my mental health! None survived. Dog got the tiny pupsicles.
Quail were a fun endeavor. I incubated the tiny eggs in an aquarium with overhead heat. Like all "production" methods, I marked eggs as they went in; so could keep track of the anticipated hatchings every 17 days. Then I transfered the baby bumblebees to a heated brooder box and kept the lights low. Babies raised in dim light grew faster and meatier. But I hated ringing 6-week old maturing quail almost as much as I hated debeaking them. Why? Intensively managed quail turn cannibalistic. The dark meat is, however, delicious for the few bites per carcass. I wanted quail meat more than the dog.
Chickens needed a high protein diet (not as high as quail) and winter lights for off season laying. Dogs got frozen eggs that were split.

But I developed feather allergies even from my foraging chickens; so I decided to raise ducks. Not Indian Runners and other duck-type ducks - too noisy. I settled on Muscovies. They were prolific, large, good brooders and could wander the property w/o needing any special fencing or setup. Nor were they as greasy as regular ducks and geese. Every late summer and fall, we butchered some for the table (did I mention you need pliers for wing feathers?) and got a good penny for the ones we sold. Our dog was raised on goat milk, entrails and waste products from our animal endeavors, as well as table scraps. Our current dogs, many years and miles away from then, get raw chicken drumsticks pork neck bones and a good dry dog food. It's expensive, being 100% store bought. We shan't mention the road killed deer we hauled home a few years ago for one dog - harvesting road kill is illegal here.

I'd like to emphasize that decent livestock/poultry books helped me identify and head off potential problems right from the start. Experience filled in the gaps in my knowledge. But I never attempted to raise any livestock for my animals to eat - my growing family were always the primary beneficiaries of my work, the carnivorous critters way down the list.

With Sandra mentioning muscovy ducks I wanted to share my experience as a tip to be aware of. I raised chickens, geese, and ducks. I will never raise ducks again and yes, my ducks were muscovies. They created the biggest mess. they would sit in their areas at night and poop and sit in it. What was worse is my husband would not lock them up like he did the chickens. They were in an open pen area at night, well it was closed but easily accessible by skunks, owls etc. Once they go to sleep they are literally sitting ducks. We would lose almost a dozen in the winter. The cost was too high to keep them. So if you have a lot of predators I would suggest if you go to muscovies then lock them up in a building at night. Muscovies are also excellent to let loose in an orchard to clean up the bugs you do not want so from a permaculture view they are a good way to go.

I personally am convinced that dogs need meat.  If you set aside the moral and ethical issues people have with meat-eating, it becomes obvious in my opinion.  I have no interest in debating this with anyone, but for the sake of your dogs, please research this with an open mind and make an informed decision.  Here is one article that touches on some main areas of the debate: What do dogs eat?

Trace Oswald wrote:I personally am convinced that dogs need meat.  If you set aside the moral and ethical issues people have with meat-eating, it becomes obvious in my opinion.  I have no interest in debating this with anyone, but for the sake of your dogs, please research this with an open mind and make an informed decision.  Here is one article that touches on some main areas of the debate: What do dogs eat?

I agree dogs need meat. I've seen mine catch rabbits through the fence and even eat their babies. There is probably more animals that fall prey too. If they were to just kill them or leave them alone altogether, to me, there might be something to be said about not eating meat. If their instincts are to eat meat then I say it's hard to argue with that. I agree with what Salatin says about letting the animals be the animals or allow the dog-ness of the dog. I kind of assume feeding a dog no meat and not allowing them to hunt is more of surviving and less thriving. Maybe there is a difference in breeds as far as meat?

This is a great discussion a lot of people ignore! I'm working on closing the cycles here. I wonder... Although it might be considered cruel. Maybe as direct feeding as possible is the most efficient? Maybe putting the live animal with the dog to be hunted and killed is most efficient? Not sure about the moral and cruelty aspects of doing so. I say so because a lot of the expended energy seems to be the processing and storing of the animals. I think I did read someone above was doing so.

s wesley wrote:
This is a great discussion a lot of people ignore! I'm working on closing the cycles here. I wonder... Although it might be considered cruel. Maybe as direct feeding as possible is the most efficient? Maybe putting the live animal with the dog to be hunted and killed is most efficient? Not sure about the moral and cruelty aspects of doing so. I say so because a lot of the expended energy seems to be the processing and storing of the animals. I think I did read someone above was doing so.

For those that have live traps for moles, gophers, mice, rats, etc, this is--I think--a great solution. Definitely kinder than drowning the rodent, and conserves resources more than shooting the it. When I was young, we had a dog, and my parents often caught rats and moles in live traps. They'd bring the cage to our dog and open it up in front of her, and she'd make quick end of them. She was a lot kinder to them than my cats are, that's for sure!

Chris Sargent wrote: <...>
I think I'd also do rabbits.  A handful of does and a buck will keep you in baby bunnies pretty much year round.  I've not raised meat rabbits personally but know several people that do and know that they can produce quite a bit of meat.   An advantage of rabbits is you can keep them breeding year round and so could keep them live until its time to feed rather than raising and butchering something like ducks or chickens in a batch or a larger animal that has to be butchered and process in one go and then meat has to be frozen or canned.  If you're feeding them to the dogs fresh you wouldn't need to do much for processing, just kill and skin.

Hi. Latecomer to this conversation, but in case anyone's interested -- please don't skin the rabbit! Wolves don't remove the skin before eating their prey, and they'd be ill advised to do so: the skin contains valuable nutrients. In the case of rabbits it carries almost every bit of fat that is on the carcass. Some dogs may need a bit of introducing: cut the rabbit in half and peel the skin away toward the extremities, but leave it on. They'll get the idea in no time. Not surprisingly, they LOVE rabbit. If your dog is initially put off by the smell of the guts, then "paunch" the rabbit, but leave the lungs, heart, liver, and kidneys in place. If you paunch the rabbit make sure the dog gets some fruit and greens in their diet as well -- which they would have gotten from eating the stomach contents. I add eggs (another complete food) and occasionally milk, yoghurt or kefir as well as fruit and veg.

Im glad that i came across this topic .i have a pomiranian.i home can certain foods.in which that includes chicken soup.and turkey soup.I've been leaning into the direction of canning some soups in half pint jars especially for her.place's that process deer and meat department at local grocery stores was mentioned. I'll be giving them a try on my next primary shopping trip.

jim loggin wrote:Im glad that i came across this topic .i have a pomiranian.i home can certain foods.in which that includes chicken soup.and turkey soup.I've been leaning into the direction of canning some soups in half pint jars especially for her.place's that process deer and meat department at local grocery stores was mentioned. I'll be giving them a try on my next primary shopping trip.

Keep in mind, no onions for dogs, and you'll be good to  go. I also make our dog food.

Joe Braxton wrote:A few random thoughts....not recommending any of this....

Not the most pleasant thing perhaps, but depending on where you live and what the local wildlife and road conditions are, would road-kill be viable?  Around here I could gather enough for a whole pack of dogs all year long. Little to no cash input (gas?) and very little time involved. I'd check the laws first and probably plan to cook anything gathered to be on the safe side.

Another source might be any commercial chicken/turkey/hog farms near by. They all have animals die every day that have to be disposed of (bury, compost, burn), maybe you could collect them for the dogs. A lot of them have reduced/eliminated the hormones and meds of the past, but I'd still ask if going this route.

Someone we met here on permies feeds their dogs on road kill regularly. They drive around their mountain roads and pick up deer, raccoons, whatever they find, and throw it in the back of their truck. They just cut it into hunks bone and all and feed it to their dogs raw. The system is really working for them.

Em Kellner wrote:We have two Great Pyrenees LGDs and I'd like to start raising our own "dog food" for a raw diet.  Right now we're spending about $90/month on grain-free kibble because I haven't decided on a reliable source of homegrown food for them.  What would you say is the most efficient method?  Chickens?  Quail?  Fish?  Rabbits?  Rate of production and quantity will be important with two very large dogs - for instance with chickens they would need a good sized one every single day.  Or I guess I could raise a ton at once and process and freeze? Anyone want to share their best self-sustainable methods for this?

A couple of thoughts.

Giving dogs raw meat usually never turns out good. They many times dogs "get a taste" for raw meat and start harvesting their own from neighbors chicken coops and live stock.

I read someone recommending hunting. As a hunter I find this very offensive and destructive. Most hunters have a great respect for the environment and the animals to kill stuff to feed to two over sized dogs is very disrespectful to the environment, animals and fellow hunters. I hope you do not consider destructive behavior like this.

Historically dogs lived off of the scraps humans made, the more scraps you have usually was equal to the bigger heard you had and processed which was equal to the more dogs you needed to protect them. In working ranch and farm situations most dogs have a job and purpose.

Modern dog food takes waste from processing plants and is the most effective way to feed modern dogs who have no job or real purpose.

I’ve been raw feeding for six years now and can attest to the great health benefits I’ve seen in all my pets. My pitbull has bad allergies and she’s now the picture of health. We rescued a sickly old mastiff off the side of the road and he’s blossomed as well. My cats are all strictly meat only (bone-in chicken thighs, hearts, liver all ran through the grinder with a couple supplements) but I do add about 10% non-starchy vegetables to the dogs diets. Dandelion greens (plus a root or two), zucchini/squash, pumpkin, kale, blueberries, wheatgrass, broccoli, carrot, etc. with a dollop or two of sauerkraut, I pulverize everything in a food processor and freeze it in ice cube trays enough for a months worth. They don’t have the correct enzymes to break down vegetable matter very well since they usually would only be eating the pre-digested contents of their prey, pulverizing it down into a pulp allows them to extract the nutrients much easier. Their meat and bone I mostly source through a raw feeding co-op for a good price but does require a dedicated chest freezer to store. Beef heart, pork chunks, duck necks and heads, whole sardines, duck eggs, lamb liver, beef kidney, sweetbreads, and pork spleen. If you could get up with a game processor or small local farmer others have had great success getting all the offal and off cuts for cheap (don’t be afraid of some fatty bits), large bones are great treats or chop them down and stew for a couple days for a great bone broth. It’s vital to remember the importance of ratios, approximately 10% of their diet needs to be edible bone (whole poultry or carcass, bone in fish, feet) and another 10% is offal (5% liver then the other 5% another organ such as kidney, spleen, sweetbreads, testes, etc.) Do note that hearts, lungs, and tripe aren’t considered an excreting organ and should be considered as meat portion.
Mind you, I do spend a couple hours every couple weeks to pre-portion their meals into takeaway containers that go in the deep freeze so I can grab a few to thaw in the fridge and feed without having to prep every time. My crew are my beloved pets and I understand LGDs may not be deemed worth the effort to prepare everything like that, but having a few bags of frozen liver, sardines, carcasses, heads, etc to toss them to make sure they’re getting approximately the correct nutrients wouldn’t take much effort or cost. I’ve started researching about raising our own animals for feed, seems that rabbit, guinea pig, quail, and goat would be the easiest and most economical. All except goat could be fed whole so processing would be very easy and all their ratios would be met. Not to mention if you took the time to dress them out a nice protein variation for your own family.  

I just thought. we have a wild bore issues in my area. so if I was to start collecting road kill. I'd make sure the meat is good. plus I'd start shooting the wild board. not only for the dogs. but for myself as well.

Christopher Westmore wrote:

I read someone recommending hunting. As a hunter I find this very offensive and destructive. Most hunters have a great respect for the environment and the animals to kill stuff to feed to two over sized dogs is very disrespectful to the environment, animals and fellow hunters. I hope you do not consider destructive behavior like this.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean that it's ok to hunt for game to feed to humans, who are capable of raising their own meat, but not ok to hunt in order to feed dogs, whose ancestors' natural diet was the animals you hunt? If that's what you mean, I don't get your logic. Wild predators serve no purpose to humans but I assume you don't have a problem wit them eating game, right?