Brian Church

I'm planning an on-grid commercial/residential solar "generation facility" (as the local utility refers to it), with a diesel prime generator that I hope to run on WVO.

While looking into grid-tieing the system, I saw that renewable energy credits are available for biomass, provided it is harvested sustainably.

Doesn't WVO fit that description?

I plan to call the relevant agencies and start inquiring tomorrow, as I have had no luck finding any info online.  Meanwhile, I'm wondering if anyone here has any info as to that.

Also, I can't find anything concrete the EPA has to say about WVO in stationary engines.  What's the deal there?

Thanks in advance!

R Scott wrote:YouTubers say you can get lithium cheaper than lead acid these days, but they are hit and miss.  If you want to go that route, I would watch the YouTube reviews and follow their links to specific products.  anything.

Speaking of:

One youtuber who seems to know his stuff reviewed some 3.2v 100ah lifepo4 sinopoly batteries, and found then to be quite good, despite being the cheapest on alibaba.com.

It was from the link in the description that I found the 500 ah batteries from the same seller.  Then I saw the batteries popping up everywhere.

Obviously, I can't extrapolate the youtuber's results to other batteries, so the purpose of the thread is to see if anyone had heard anything.

If they are 3.7v and 2.5ah for 4 Euros, that's actually quite a bit more than I'd expect; over 400 Euros per kwh.  You can get an LG power wall, which includes a charge controller, etc, for less.

While I'm seeing that 2.5ah is common for 18650s, I'm guessing you're quoting higher capacity cells.

Michael Cox wrote:I know absolutely nothing about this specific product and offering, however I have been looking in to 18650 cells for ebike batteries. The groups I am a member of have been discussing a lot of fake batteries being offered for sale from China...

Michael,
It seems like prices of less than $100 / kw are not unheard of these days, but on this scale I'd expect to pay a bit more.

(Having said that, most if the places with the best prices are out if stock right now, so they may in fact be a bit more.)

By comparison, how much are you paying per kwh with 18650s these days?

I'm seeing these batteries on Amazon, etc.  It seems like they come from China.



It seems like, if you're really thrifty, you can get 16 for under 2000 USD.  If my math servers, that's 25.6 kwh of storage not a lot of money, relatively speaking.  Has battery storage really gotten this much cheaper in the last 24 months?

So far I haven't found any testimonials, so I figured I'd ask if anyone's heard anything about them.

I'm looking for a battery bank to pair with a Sol Ark 12K.

Michael Qulek wrote:
My understanding is that you can mix up to 50:50 waste vegetable oil directly into diesel and have it flow through the injectors properly.  Maybe more if you blend it with winter diesel (diesel #1).

Intetesting, but I wonder if this would lead to more coke buildup than heated oil?

In any case, some napkin math suggests that the economics would not work out.  It would make more sense to run a NG generator with gas from the public utility.

It would probably make more sense in other places, depending on energy prices, and NG availability.

Michael Qulek wrote:
My understanding of a dual-fuel step-up though is that you need exact pressure requirements for the fuels to go through the injectors properly, so simply splitting the fuel line might not be enough.  You may need two different fuel pumps forcing fuel at the right pressures.

I google searched a bit, a found that many businesses/individuals stopped selling conversion kits.  Many of the websites are down alltogether.  I'm guessing that congress' failure to renew the $1/gallon tax credit for biodiesel rendering has trickled down disinterest in WVO overall.

I contacted the companies who seemed like they could be helpful.  3 responded.  One was US-based and pretty clearly had no interest in my business.  Another turned out to be German, and said he could not do business overseas due to some red tape.  Finally, a guy out of Canada ( drbjornsauto.com ) responded.

He's been very helpful, and suggested a conversion would not be that complicated, given the right generator.

To your point about fuel pressure, Michael, one thing he suggested was to not get a genset with a direct injection engine.

I'll not put words in his mouth, but separately I found some academic research that suggests SVO will not aerosolize the same as diesel, even when heated (perhaps, not surprisingly).  The paper suggested the end result would be a shorter engine lifespan.  I assume this could be true as well-- to a lesser extent -- for a diesel:wvo blend.

So, now I'm trying to find a generator that meets the spec and won't break the bank.  This is harder than it sounds.  I didn't reslize good and compatible diesel gensets were nearly an order of magnutude more expensive than entry level gas gensets, at the same power output.

My guru will not permit me to simply buy something from alibaba.

I know there are kits for vehicles, but what about for generators?  Searching online, I see that much of the information about biodiesel/wvo/svo is dated, and many of the online communities are abandoned.  I'm sure it has a lot to do with the $1/gal rendering credit going away.  Still, I have a supply of wvo available to me, and a need for more and cheaper electricity, and I would really like to find a way to marry these things.

One idea I've had is to hire an old engine mechanic off craigslist to help me split off the fuel line, and install a valve that will switch from the stick fuel tank to an external tank with wvo once  the fuel is hot enough.

I would appreciate any tips or insights, especially as to what type of genset would be easiest to modify, and any potential pitfalls that I'm not seeing (e.g. maybe this is not as simple or viable as I think).

S Bengi wrote:It's $600 for 12v so you will need 4X for 48v. S0 $2,400.

You make good points beyond this (e.g. finding UL underwritten), but I got hung up on the first line because I totally thought they were each 12V.  That certainly changes the calculus.

I'll do more research on the DIY end, and compare it to your recommendation so I can generate an educated response.

To be honest, I am kinda attracted to DIY per se, but there's also something to be said for keeping it as simple and safe as possible.

Thanks again.



PS  I know I need a BMS, but I haven't done much research on that from a DIY perspective, so I didn't bring it up so as not to expand the scope of this thread anymore.

S Bengi wrote:You just need a battery/battery bank that can handle the max 1000W charge rate.
48V x 20Ah = 1000Wh (50x20)
Battery banks like a 25% charge rate aka 4x. So you need 4x1000W = 4000W
48V x 20Ah x 4 = 48V x 80Ah = 4000Wh

So a battery bank with 80AH is what you are looking for. But just 1000Wh will work esp given that the battery is not actually being charged or discharge, its just acting as a middle man.

Now if the grid goes down and your generator is still going and your battery is full, you will have to do something with that power aka a dump load.

Also if the grid goes down you will have very little power in your house if any, due to not having a sizable battery bank.
So how much power will you have, generator + battery aka P=G+B
P=1000W + (Battery x Discharge Rate)
P=1000W + (1000W x 5hr discharge rate)
P=1000W + (1000W x 0.2)
P=1000W + 200W (but technically you could pull it all out, in 1hr vs 5hrs)
With these numbers best case you can get 2kW but more like 0.6kW, now with a huge battery bank you could more.

Li-polymer battery with 12C x 48V x 20Ah = 12C x 1000w = discharge of 12,000W
LiFePO4 with 1C x 48V x 240Ah = 1C x 12,000Wh = 12,000W
Lead Acid = 0.2C x 48 x 1200Ah = 0.2C x 60,000Wh = 12,000W

Thanks for the reply, and pardon the delay.

I saw some pretty good looking AliBaba sourced batteries reviewed on YouTube.

The specs list a max pulse discharge rate of 3C, so I presume they are 1C.

I was thinking of getting 1 kit of 4, 1P4S, so 48 V * 100 Ah = 4800 Wh

I didn't realize battery banks like a 25% charge rate, so it seems like my max input should be around 1200 W or 1.2 KW.

I could double that with 2P4S at some point down the road, which would allow me 9.6Kw hours of storage, which at a 25% charge rate would allow me an input of 2.4Kw.   I see that the MidNite Classic 150 supports up to 72V battery banks, so that would allow me to go up to 2P6S:

72 V * 200 Ah = 14400 Wh or 14.4 KWh

14.4 KWh * 1 C * 25% = 3.6 KW

Did I get that all right?

Thanks again!

Pardon the delayed response.

S Bengi wrote:
I want to know what type of load the sol-ark 8kw was having problems with that a outback skybox or outback radian with 8kw of power would do better with.

I wish I'd asked that question, and now I can't recall which vendor I called.

David Baillie wrote:In terms of pricing dont forget to add in the legally required breakers and disconnects you have to add on with the radian and Schneider built into the sol ark. Then add on the solar charge controller you have to add and the inverter controller all those items are seperate add ons from radian and schneider... the skybox is a different kind of unit also high frequency like the solark so if the 8k had problems starting loads the skybox would as well...

If Sol-Ark's promotional material is to be believed -- and as you point out, there's at least some veracity to it -- then it may actually be the most affordable option.

With respect to problems with certain loads, I recall the rep said that Sol-Ark offers solutions to the problem, but they are not happy enough with them to recommend the 8k.  The price difference between the 8K and the 12K is not all that much, so it may make sense to go with the 12K just to be safe.  I'll dig a bit deeper into that.


Thanks for all the input guys.  I feel much better informed than going in.  I recognize I still have a lot to learn, but for now I'm on to researching batteries.  Thanks again!