Em Nichols

Tish Toren wrote:The problem with "new breeds", especially crosses of breeds with wildly different histories and selected working balances, is predictability.

Genetics are not like cooking, where you can add a little of this or that and get a uniform blend of "flavors" in a litter the way you would in a pot of soup. In dogs, the F1 cross will get a more predictable balance of traits, simply because the 2 fullblooded  parents will each contribute roughly 50%. Once you breed on with crossbred parents the proportions of traits can vary wildly. Even within the LGD breed group there will be variation, add in and akc pet breed like St Bernard and it's a crapshoot, add a highly prey/chase driven breed, like GSD, and any chance of predictability goes out the window. LGD/herding crosses are everywhere now, they are the most common farm oops breeding, and are often downright dangerous.

I just wanted to speak up here, in case others that are researching this breed (or any LGD breed, really) happen to find this page.

First of all, I want to say up front that I love ALL dogs.  All dogs deserve loving and safe homes.  I do have my own preferences when it comes to the dogs I choose for myself and for our homestead.  I love the creativity that *can* go into breeding dogs.  However, this is where we start to teeter on that slippery slope...

I absolutely agree with what Tish said.  Genetics are tricky and it's not just a matter of mixing one beautiful breed with another beautiful and hardworking breed to create a new wonderful breed.   There is no way to determine how you will get the traits you want (less barking or less wandering) versus keeping the traits such as heightened alertness and unnerving courage facing predators that we want to see in our livestock guardians.  To breed for these wanted qualities will take several generations.  In the meantime, what will become of the puppies that are made along the way?  Sure, they can be general farm dogs, family dogs, therapy dogs or companions.

I really am trying to find the words to explain how this makes me feel without offending anyone.  

I fully understand that this is how the present day dog breeds we have came to be.  As the humans in this equation, we have a responsibility to these dogs to promote the best version of these dogs and this is why ethical breeders adhere to strict breeding guidelines set by our specific breed clubs.  Read about the St Bernard, their history and previous experimental breeding efforts here: https://saintbernardclubofamerica.club/breed-history/  I found it interesting that they attempted to breed OUT the long hair because the weight of the ice that formed in the long hair would incapacitate the dogs.  I am VERY well aware that wonderful dogs can be bred without health testing or adhering to breed standards.  That is a whole other discussion and for the purpose of this post, I don't think we need to go down the AKC/CKC registry rabbit hole.

My advice for anyone researching LGDs for their farm or homestead is to 1) research all breeds (breed club sites, YouTube, etc.) and their specific characteristics.  There is a specific purpose for each and every attribute of dogs (coat, ears, eyes, shape of head, eye color, shape of tail, dewclaws, etc.) 2) visit and observe as many dogs and breeds in their own environment as you possibly can 3) talk to LGD owners and ask them about their experiences; why they chose their specific dogs, what challenges they faced 4) build your fences NOW and 5) recognize that anyone that talks to you about their dogs probably has a bias for specific breeds.

I prefer to see everyone set up for success including the dogs and the dog owners.  Can this mix of two breeds make wonderful LGDs?  I would cautiously say "yes."  It may not be a breed for me, but it can work for someone else.  I just don't particularly like the idea of mixing breeds, hoping for the best and promoting this as a new designer breed (:ahem: ...Labradoodles.)  Like I said, it's a slippery slope between creating good working dogs versus the concern for diluting pure working dog breeds.

Oh boy, I'm ready for the very emotional responses to this post!  I tried to be as respectful as possible to have a mature conversation while stating my personal concerns.    

Jen Anderson wrote:Hi Gunther,

I have dreamed of having a place in the desert since I grew up in the desert outside of Tucson as a child.   I wanted to create a space where people can come for contemplative/spiritual/solitude experiences.  I got very very lucky on a land purchase.  I have been looking for a caretaker (or caretaker couple) who wants to live on the land...but I have been striking out.  I need more permie type community vs the folks who have been responding to ads I have placed.  There is space for community, I am just a little gun shy after my first few experiences with having other people living out here.  

Jen

I know exactly what you mean!  My searches which have included friends and family members have almost all ended with less-than-desirable circumstances. It's insane that people don't want to live for free, eat for free, and all they have to do is a little bit of work, contribute and be good people.  I had ONE fantastic experience recently that has given me hope again.  

Oh well, here's to doing it by ourselves!  We are in NM, just two miles over the border from AZ, but I spend most of my time at my business in AZ.  I have tried looking for other like-minded folks on Permies, WWOOF, FIC and Facebook.  The Facebook experience was so awful, I rarely even look at Facebook anymore.  

I hope you find what you are looking for.  

Ty Jackson wrote:I'd love to come out and see what you've built. I've been trying to do something similar on 140 acres in eastern NM. And the individuals who usually reply or show up are quite interesting to say the least and to keep it nice.
But I'd like to see your place and know how it's all going for you.

I'm sending you a message.  

I was a Harvest Host - same sort of idea, except that visitors do not pay directly, and they are only allowed to stay for one night.  The "payment" was supposed to come from visitors buying what you sell at your location, or, in my case, they were encouraged to pay for my time to provide a farm tour, as we don't sell anything to the permies.  

It was way more trouble than it was worth - people don't read directions (CALL PRIOR TO ARRIVAL) and they got lost, stuck in small spots and destroyed parts of our parking lot.  Nice concept, but not worth my time.  

I absolutely could do it as an income-generating source, however, I am only one person and I have too many other things to do.  

Di Lakeville wrote:Drove 3 hours for a joke

If this is the person I am thinking of, I have no idea why she is calling this a joke.  

I met her, and offered to drive her to my home (about one hour 15 minutes away with the last 9 miles of not very well maintained dirt road) - while we were driving I received a phone call from my employee that required me to return back to my business (where we had just met one hour prior!) for a seriously injured dog that needed to go to the vet.  This woman decided not to proceed even though I offered to drive with her the last 9 miles to my house but I would have to immediately turn around and leave.  Sure, I understand, the situation sounds shady (I guess?) - I had to get back to my business (which is where she had met me in the first place so she knows I really do have a business) and I even offered to pay for her gas money and time for the trip she made out to meet us but she refused.  I don't know.  I guess I'm sorry that I appeared to be untrustworthy, but all I was doing was tending to the important things like my business and the safety of a dog in our care.  Bad timing and lack of trust on her part.  It happens.  
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ANYWAY!    It may as well be time for an update!  

This is what our life is like - running a homestead and an off-site business one hour away isn't easy. My husband typically stays home to tend to our animals while I work at our business anywhere from 30-80 hours per week.  There are times that I need to have him go to the business with me which is possible, but even easier when there is someone at the homestead to make sure animals get fed.

Thankfully, we just had a couple that WWOOF'd with us for three weeks which renewed my hope that these arrangements can work out.  Self-starters that collected their own eggs, milked their own sheep milk, and learned to butcher their own animals while having all their housing, food and utility needs met.  We do not financially benefit from any of those efforts as we don't sell our products, unless we have way too much!  All we asked for was them to feed and water our animals (approximately 1 hour, possibly 1.5 hours if you really stretched it, of work) each day.  All eggs went to them.  All milk was theirs. They butchered their own animals for their own consumption, so it's not like I was benefitting from any of it before any of you say or think otherwise.  She would put in online orders for the grocery store, which I paid for and picked up.  It was helpful to have two young people just be present and take care of the bare minimum, which is all I have wanted.  We were waiting for our ewes to start lambing, which they did, two days after our WWOOF'ers left!

Our lambs have started hitting the ground last week and expect six more to deliver in the next 1-2 months, along with our 4 Nubian girls.  Fun times!  I'd love to have others here to share the joy of babies running around everywhere, but absolutely not at the risk of being called a "joke."  

Take care y'all.  

So far, we have found that Navajo County, Apache County and Coconino County have been the least restrictive counties in Arizona.  We have lived and been off-grid in all three counties, and we have watched others move in and build.  As someone else mentioned, depending on how much you insist on "following the rules" will ultimately determine how "restrictive" your property is.  Also, by insisting on following the rules, that puts your neighbors in a position to be forced to follow the rules.  I have watched it over and over again.  New neighbor comes in, wants to build his 3000 sqft house, put in septic, yada yada.  On the way to the site, the county sees numerous neighbors who have installed their septic/built/etc without proper permits.  Guess who gets blamed for the "sudden" code enforcement? It doesn't make for happy neighbors, and these days, I'd much rather keep my neighbors happy than those that come from the government as code enforcers, if you know what I mean.  

We live in an area where many people have moved in order to have the REAL freedom to do what they want.  Not this percieved freedom that you feel that you have when you buy your 20-40-200 acres and are part of an HOA.  Ugh.    

Here's your requirements:
- Unrestricted use
- Well on site
- Over two acres
- Power pole CLOSE BY would be awesome; am prepared to go solar if not.

I just so happen to have 40 acres for sale in Navajo County, with it's own well (700+ feet) with a well report but does not have the pump installed ($10-$15,000.)  There is no power available that I am aware of. If there is, it may be a mile or so away.  This property is 9 miles off the pavement, with dirt roads that are passable with AWD/4WD.  There are people that are able to live here with 2WD but it is not recommended.  The closest town is Show Low, approximately 45-60 minutes away from all the big box stores - Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart and grocery stores.  Although we started off as mostly off-grid newbies on this property, I would recommend experienced off-griders. Starlink and Verizon would be best options for internet.  Having a job that you would be required to go to everyday, or take kids to school everyday would not be condusive with living here.  Most people go to town for supplies once a week at most, but more like once every 2-3 weeks.  This requires a LOT of planning.  

Elevation on the property is 6400-6800 feet.  Temperatures are mild in the summer, with very few days over 95*F.  Winter temps can dip into the teens at night with daytime temps 40-60*F.  I can't remember the amount of rainfall off hand, but we do experience monsoons that can cause issues with roads and impact your ability to drive out until it dries.  Snowfall is usually a few inches that doesn't last more than 2-3 days at most.  Usually it melts off within one day.  

The property is about 3/5 fenced with barbed wire.  One of our projects was to replace the existing barbed wire, but we never finished.  This is free range cattle area.  You'll have to look it up if you're not familiar.  It causes some issues when ranchers are allowed to let cows roam wherever they want, cattle helps themselves to your livestock food, gardens and water, and the expectation that ranchers are able to access (trespass) your property, including destroying your fence however they see fit.  With property fencing and security measures, these issues can be mitigated.  Again, not for a beginner by any means.  

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed in several forums, but a homesteader MUST be in good health.  I've seen so many people want to live the off-grid life, but then are disappointed to find out that their doctors, especially specialists are 3-4 hours away, which means a WHOLE DAY of being away from the homestead.  It's a huge problem here.  When we are gone from our homestead for a full day, who will feed and water our animals?  Who will tend to the long list of everything that must be done?  If homesteaders have chronic health conditions, especially that require life saving medications, please carefully decide where you decide to live.  Stay in tip-top shape by staying active and eating nutritious food.  By all means, start homesteading when you are YOUNG, and don't wait until you are older and the health problems start to present themselves!

How did my simple response turn into rambling about homesteading living?  hahahah, I don't know, but good luck.  I hope you find what you're looking for!

Robbie, I did email you almost immediately after you posted.  Maybe the email was lost in all the fluff?

I have 40 acres with a private well in rural Northeastern Arizona, near Show Low.  It is an amazing piece of property, let me know if you would like more information.  It is in Navajo County, parcel 404-75-014.  

Hi Michele, I emailed you.

I realized that I have been sharing a lot about me.  What about the other person, my life partner, my soulmate, that is involved in this adventure?  His name is Tim, and he prefers to be much more private.  I can tell you that he is an amazing human.  He is smart and funny, and can get just about anything to work.  He grew up as a city boy, so the idea of moving off grid and starting our homesteading life was a huge step for him at the age of 55.  We watched SO many YouTube videos together.  He focused on learning about building - structures, walipinis, greenhouses, earth bag homes, etc. while I focused my research on animals and animal care.

Tim and I met in the summer of 2015, part of an online community involved with Burning Man.  We met in person in September 2015 and we haven't stopped loving our life together since then.  We have lived together in California, Nevada, Missouri, and now Arizona while we expand into New Mexico.  Tim's hobbies are airplanes, flying planes, watching videos about airplanes and dreaming about airplanes.  He is a pilot and a certified flight instructor as hobbies, not as his profession.  We own an airplane and can share so many stories of our adventures prior to settling down on our homestead.  He works online doing computer stuff that is beyond my scope of understanding. Tim has discovered his love of sheep and our Anatolians which are the livestock guardians for our animals.  Our predator load includes coyote, bear, skunk, porcupine, bobcat, hawks, owls stray dogs and two legged creatures.  Our dogs do an amazing job making sure none of our livestock are harmed by predators.  Tim LOVES cats, so if you are a cat lover, you will be a true friend.  We have a wild story about his best kitty friend, Haggis. Tim takes his health very seriously, and finds that fasting keeps him feeling good and healthy!  On the other hand, I love to cook and love to eat even more!

Tim takes care of maintenance on the homestead.  We have our own well and he makes sure our water supply is always available and clean.  We have two separate solar powered systems set up, one for our residence and one for the business.  If you want to learn about solar, Tim is your guy!  He can talk bout batteries, charge controllers, panels, inverters, and backup generators all day long.  Tim has learned by trial and error how to build fences, and we have learned what a "goat proof" fence is.  If you have never heard this term, you are in for a treat!  Together we have learned how to tend to our animals and experienced our first season of lambing this year.  We had 26 lambs born this year and it was a bonding experience, for sure.  We helped sick mothers, held dying babies and nursed sheep back to health together.  We learned how to load livestock into a trailer together! There are so many fun things to share with others!

About our property:
We are at 6800' at the highest point on our property.  Elevation can be difficult.  We are considered high desert here, and we think it's beautiful.  Maybe I'll write more about our property later...