Nicole Christine

Thanks everyone!

It would be horrible to lose a momma goat right after kidding. I’ve lost one to dust pneumonia about 5 weeks after birth, and that was hard enough. She was my prettiest goat, too. Blue roan front, white band middle, solid black butt. I adored her and she kicked it on one of the few weekends I was away.

The expiration date checking might be why some folks complain about formula, perhaps theirs was out of date. I don’t think the stores check it reliably, and goat formula can’t be something in high demand.

As an update, I’ve been kept busy. One side of the doe’s udder was looking hard and angry, and so I had to really ensure she’s been milked out. I think she was producing more than her kids were taking, and for the first day or two I was still working out how to milk her. She’s the polar opposite of the Nubians I had before her, which had big, or in one instance giant, teats. Then it’s been years since I’ve hand milked and I had muscle fatigue.

This doe milks kind of funny, in the flow. It’s this steady stream that doesn’t seem to slow down until it’s just done. And then five minutes later, her kids are nursing again and wagging tails so I still think they’re somehow getting more? Unless they’re just happy to be going through the motions.

About the same time I got decent at milking her, one of the Unloved (which is what my brother started calling the two kids which aren’t hers) began to take advantage of the milking situation. That doeling now chases down the doe, and I think the doe both isn’t THAT fussed and is a like confused which kids are hers, so at least one Unloved kid is getting milk on her own. The other Unloved doeling seems a bit scared.

My ultimate goal is to get both Unloved to nurse and take directly from the doe. It’ll help out even if it isn’t enough for them.

I found my old milking stand; it’s not fared well, so I need to see what I can do to make another one. I’m not super keen on woodworking only because the lumber prices are something to marvel at. I’ll see what I can find in the junk yard. There’s some cattle stuff and lots of metal bits. I think there might be something made for sheep in there but goodness knows if I can find it!

The kids meanwhile are happy. This morning I came to feed the bottle babies, and the momma goat looked out of the goat house, saw me, went back in, and butted out the two kids I needed. In retrospect she’s done this before, but I thought she was being mean, and now I think she just knows I want those two kids. I think this Toggenberg/Alpine doe is the smartest goat I’ve had yet.

Thanks Thomas! I appreciate the ideas and knowing what has worked for you.

My inclination is to start doing cows milk for the kids, once they need more than the doe can produce. My instinct is to keep the high calories high fat content the younger they are and to slacken as they get nearer to weaning and can eat real food. Maybe at first I’ll make a recipe of whole cows milk plus evaporated milk plus buttermilk for a while then taper off as they grow.

I might still try lamb formula. It is easier to get than goat. I’m not sure which way works out cheaper, fresh cow or formula. A gallon of milk at Walmart get costs $2.83 and I don’t know how much it costs for a gallon’s  worth of formula.

It’s possible that she’ll be able to raise the lot for what the first month? I think she’ll not have enough for all five kids long term.

I think I originally posted that the doe was a Nubian mix with Alpine; that’s what I was told but I’ve had a chat with my goat loving aunt, who thinks she’s not an ounce Nubian and probably 50/50 Toggenberg/Alpine. I think she’s right.

She’s definitely the best mannered goat I’ve ever had and I can milk her without any restraints. My only complaint is she has the world’s tiniest teats! I had to look up how to milk mini breeds. This is a goat that takes one finger and a thumb.

I have two Nubian doelings outside >1 week old, and I’ve been hearing mixed things about using goat formula. Things like, they don’t do as well or they tend to bloat and die on formula.

(Firstly yes they’ve had 48hrs of goat colostrum from their mother, but their mother was needed to nurse extra lambs and I wanted doelings so I got them.)

It isn’t my first time having goats but it’s been over a decade. I did bottle feed a kid or two on occasion, but I can’t for the life of me remember what I did. I think I had a generous milking doe that I just got fresh milk for free off of.


There is a milking doe outside right now with 1 wk old triplets on her. I noticed she’s really full so I took some milk off her (into a premeasured bottle to 3oz per kid). I think she will keep pace or outpace these extra two for a little while, but I’m not sure what I’ll do once consumption surpasses supply. I estimate that she’ll do 2 quarts on a morning milking if I separate her kids from her overnight once they’re old enough.

Hi Steve

Thank you! I’m really fortunate and lucky to have my family. They’re life savers. I don’t know what I’d do without them.

Oh I forgot to mention earlier about your suggestion on raising meat goats: my tentative plan is to have dairy/half dairy females bred to boer males and then selling the grown offspring. I’m aiming for AI reproduction rather than using bucks. I may change my strategy at the point when AI becomes more fuss than dealing with bucks, but my experience is that will take a while.

I’ve got some half baked ideas to try growing native wetland vegetation for sale for habitat restoration in the aquaculture ponds which aren’t being used, but I’m not sure how strong the market is for such plants.

I’m not sure where this next chapter of life will take us, but I’m so glad to be moving on with it!

Nancy Reading wrote:You'll certainly have a sun trap with that hillside.
Hopefully the seepage from the neighbours will be a benefit rather than a downside - depends what else they put on their fields...

I understand that sometimes it's not the frost so much as the rising sun hitting the frozen blossom that does the damage for fruiting. Later blossoming fruit tree varieties are one way around the issue. I found some threads that may help:
https://permies.com/t/165574/Late-blooming-fruit-trees-frost
https://permies.com/t/161292/Sloped-flat-land-permaculture-market#1264258
https://permies.com/t/159308
https://permies.com/t/154688/Fruit-trees-southern-slope#1211896

I'm amazed that brambles could have killed a walnut tree! It sounds like you have monster vines there!

Hi Nancy! The reading list you provided was really insightful, and it lead to me checking for frost resistant fruit trees (duh! Why didn’t I think of that earlier?) which lead me to….

https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/publishing/pdf/BUL/BUL0867.pdf

A list of trees for Idaho by the University of Idaho!

I’ve already ordered some apple trees (none made the list on the above document but oh well) and sweet cherries (which again aren’t advised on the above list) but which I know from neighbors experience do work more often than not.

However I think i will pick varieties from the University of Idaho list for stone fruits, ect.

I’m not sure if I’ll try things like painting the trunks and whatnot. Maybe.

As far as tree varieties go, mostly my trees are in flowering group 3, but I do have one early tree and the crabapple starts in group 1. If I decide my current varieties are too susceptible I’ll try frost restraint varieties.

But I think I’ll stick with the hillside as my spot. It just feels right.

Oh the brambles are something else! They’re close to 14’ tall if not more than that, and a good 26’ across. You could hide a small house under them. I think the walnut was fairly young, but old enough to give a decent crop of nuts.

I’m thinking of going with this hillside. If you look below the tree with the yellowish branches, you’ll see a huge old mess of blackberries that are progressively invading the hillside and which therefore the family wishes to be rid of. It’s unfortunately on what may well be the best place for an orchard. (I’ve spent several years ridding gardens of brambles and am under no false pretenses about the task I’m up against). My father apparently sprayed it enough to kill 95% off it then tried to bulldoze it but kept hitting rocks so stopped. His current plan is to mini escavator a fire barrier then wait for a rainy day to light the thing up.

The hillside is mostly southward facing, a little SE.
it’s the warmest place on the farm and least windy. THe soil is silty loam.

Though I couldn’t really see it due to the vegetation, apparently the contour of the landscape is bowl-like within the hill. It had a walnut tree growing until the bramble killed it. I saw the walnuts still on the ground.

It gets seep spring like water when the neighbors irrigate their fields.

One of the bonuses of this hillside is that it isn’t currently being used so it isn’t like we’re sacrificing good pasture or farm land . And then I just feel more at peace up there.

Thanks everyone! I really  appreciate the warm welcome.

I’ve been taking some solace in the hillside in the photo; up on top has some of the best views on the farm and I’ve found it is southern facing and warm compared to the rest of the farm. I think I’ve got my father on board with it at least as an orchard site and perhaps as a building site.

The initial thoughts had been to put us really near the farm’s play ground; on the hillside is pretty close as well.

Access to water and electric isn’t too much of a concern. Ironically drainage around here is more is an issue than finding water, to such an extent that aquaculture is part of the farm’s income.


CSI is a great resource! (College of Southern Idaho) and I’ll have to see who the County Extension Agent is nowadays, they used to be someone I went to school with.

I’ve also got a lead on (hopefully) a few goats. One doe and fingers crossed a few kids. They haven’t kidded yet so we don’t know.  It’s a start! My hope is to get a herd of about 30-40 and find myself an old bus to goatify as transportation/shelter for them.

I’m also in a good mood because I passed my drivers tests (again) after almost 9 years of it being “too expensive” for me to drive. Feels great to get out, and my family has loaned me a little pickup to drive.

Hi Hans

Thanks for the suggestion about the profile; I totally skipped that step.

The area is a river valley in a high desert in Southern Idaho. The valley has tiered flat stretches with some places being volcanic rock hillside (which has largely been untouched). Some areas are irrigated farmed, and there’s also a couple of wetlands with natural seep springs and tulles which feeds the irrigation.

Once upon a time there were apple orchards on the fields but the climate has gotten a bit cooler in the spring, and late frosts are notorious for killing off buds. It’s seeded to alfalfa now.

People still have mixed success with fruit trees, mainly due to frost. What you say about the thermal flow makes a whole lot of sense.

I’ll see what I can find for a thermometer like you mentioned. If they’re affordable enough, I’ll grab a few to get relative reads on the same nights in different sites.

I’m looking at a few sites for an orchard. It’s just a family orchard, not too large. Anyway I wanted to know if there’s an easy way to check for frost. I noticed a big difference in microclimate, even 75 feet Can be the difference between a frost and a harvest.

I noticed car windows show frost or not, and was wondering if I could place something like mason jars in potential orchard locations, to see if there’s one place that more sheltered than the rest?

I do have some southern facing hills with giant sagebrush on it, it’s just very untouched by man and will need some terracing done. But maybe the terracing will be helpful in harvest? Of course others in the family think the flat land is easily harvested, but I am hesitant because one hard late frost would make ease of harvest a moot point.

Sorry about spelling,ect, my new phone wants to make a fool of me.

I’m getting started on a new life on the old family farm, trouble is they don’t seem to know exactly where on it to stick a newly divorced domestic violence survivor with her toddler. There’s talk about a double-wide, which is fine by me, but no agreement about where it ought to go.

I’d like to have an orchard to snack and preserve fruit from, similar thing for a vegetable garden.

I’m planning to have a small business to rent out weed eaters, set up a goat with a “nanny cam” GoPro to record their adventures, and have a goat to produce some milk.

I’m hoping to be able to settle my soul in the dirt this summer. It can’t really come soon enough.