David Look

Abraham Palma wrote:About the nursery, it's common in old agriculture (before plastic tracks existed) to have a small seedling plot. Seedlings were transplanted, but some required a special treatment like sinking the soil so the roots don't break upon release, or being carried in a bucket of water so they don't dry waiting for the transplant. If you have tree seedlings in dormancy, it's much easier as long as you don't cut the roots too much.

Can you elaborate on the "sinking the soil so the roots don't break upon release"?

Luke Mitchell wrote: It was a really good feeling to finally give them a permanent home.

I can imagine!

Luke Mitchell wrote:I find, generally, that plants in pots are harder to keep alive and healthy than those in the ground.

I agree wholeheartedly. My reasoning for buying so many has been the uncertainty of the times we are living in. I am not convinced I will be able get what I want later if I were to wait until after we have the land. Also, I was under the impression that we would be moved by now. Some things can't be helped. But I am learning a lot, like you mentioned, and since the learning curve is steep... I'm glad I'm spending my "waiting" time actively building knowledge and skills.

Luke Mitchell wrote: I felt it was worth sharing my experience as it seems similar to your own journey).

Thank you, Luke.

Andrea Locke wrote:

Also, planting in a diamond pattern will fit more trees per acre than a square pattern...

Yes! Will for sure do this

Andrea Locke wrote:We did something very much like you for two years while looking for the land we have now! Hundreds of trees and other plants in pots.

Glad to know I'm not alone. Feels overwhelming at times.

I have watched Sean's videos at Edible Acres about his air prune beds. Would I have to transport them as bare root plants when we move? I guess I just haven't figured out the logistics of that.

Andrea Locke wrote: The only things I would specifically add to what you mentioned are comfrey and king stropharia mushrooms.

I should have mentioned I do have comfrey. It was the first plant we bought and I should have enough to do what you recommend. Last year I experimented with using it as a weed barrier around some garden beds. Mixed results, but I love comfrey.

We have mushroom logs, but no wine caps yet. I guess since I know they grow on wood chips, I was thinking I would have to wait until we plant and mulch to do that. What do you think?

Thanks for the ideas.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi David,
One strategy that was suggested to me is to start with things much closer together (specifically fruit trees). If you want them 20 feet apart when they are fully grown, go ahead and plant then 10 feet apart..

Good idea, Matt. It reminds me of how Sean over at Edible Acres plants extra trees in his guilds. He calls it "hedging his bets". In case one tree doesn't make it, one of the others will.

If you are serious about growing the most calories in the smallest space and in a closed loop sustainable way, you should read John Jeavons book "How to Grow More Vegetables". He has been working on this for 50 years, conducting trials in California and several other countries where food security is critical.

You might also want to read some of the ebooklets they have put out. They go into a lot more detail in the design process in booklet 31. I wouldn't start there. I would start with his regular book, which I mentioned above.  I also really recommend the newest booklet 38.

http://growbiointensive.org/ePubs/index.html

In summary Jeavons recommends allotting  30% of diet crop area to high calorie root crops. There are only a handful of them... potatoes, sweet potatoes, Jerusalem artichokes, garlic, leeks, satisfy, parsnips.

Then, in order to grow your own compost, allot 60% of area to cereal grains like corn, sorghum, Amaranth, quinoa, wheat, rye, millet, etc.

The remaining 10% are for veggies. Beans would be considered a part of this area. Also peanuts. Even Cassava would be in this group. It is high calorie, but takes more space than potatoes, for example.

To answer your question in the shortest way possible, the 30% special root crops will produce the most calories per area. However they don't have enough carbon material to create compost. Nor do they make a complete diet. That's the reason for the other 60% and 10% areas. Jeavons has found that the smallest area needed to do all this is between 1000-4000 sf per person.

BTW, I was shocked when I went through all the charts recently and found that not even nut trees can produce as many calories as these root crops on a per square foot basis

Can someone please explain the meaning of the symbol on the front cover of this book.

3) NURSERY BEDS
I have also been wondering if these plants, which are mostly in pots, could be planted in the ground at close spacing if we absolutely had to do that. (Pots are getting expensive). Could they be moved later? Or could I keep them small via coppicing and use them like the mother stock to propagate a future orchard.

Just trying to plan for what I might do if we don't get the land soon, or if there isn't enough cleared land, or if deer are a problem and we need to fence them in a smaller area than is ideal. Of course, we aren't stingy. We are willing to share if the opportunity arises. So far it hasn't. No else we know is on the same page as us.  

Like so many these days, we find ourselves in transition. We have trees and shrubs in pots.. some in borrowed ground... stewarding them until we have a permanent place to put them.

We have about 50 hazelnut and 25 Chestnut, several elderberry, 4 apple, 3 bitter orange, 2 Chinese mulberry, 1 goumi, 2 muscudine, 1 lone female pawpaw (the male died) , some garlic, potatoes, Jerusalem artichoke, miscanthus, herbs... and a whole bunch of seeds.

I plan to take cuttings this winter of mulberry and eleagnus because they are available for free here. I'm still looking for a linden tree.

So far I have been purchasing by feel,, and not with a plan of any kind

I could use some feedback going forward.

1) WHAT AM I LACKING
Now I can see that my keystone trees will not have enough friends to support them, but I am not sure what they need.

2) HOW MIGHT GUILDS EVOLVE
Secondly, I have been wondering how guilds might evolve over time. If I put a hazel out on the future drip line of Chestnut, that's about 20 ft away, I think. And so, in many ways, the hazel and Chestnut aren't very close friends yet at that wide spacing. It would seem the baby trees need closer friends when they are that young. So, I'm wondering what plants might serve a supportive role in the interim while the trees are growing.