Need ideas for new land...Evolving guilds

Like so many these days, we find ourselves in transition. We have trees and shrubs in pots.. some in borrowed ground... stewarding them until we have a permanent place to put them.

We have about 50 hazelnut and 25 Chestnut, several elderberry, 4 apple, 3 bitter orange, 2 Chinese mulberry, 1 goumi, 2 muscudine, 1 lone female pawpaw (the male died) , some garlic, potatoes, Jerusalem artichoke, miscanthus, herbs... and a whole bunch of seeds.

I plan to take cuttings this winter of mulberry and eleagnus because they are available for free here. I'm still looking for a linden tree.

So far I have been purchasing by feel,, and not with a plan of any kind

I could use some feedback going forward.

1) WHAT AM I LACKING
Now I can see that my keystone trees will not have enough friends to support them, but I am not sure what they need.

2) HOW MIGHT GUILDS EVOLVE
Secondly, I have been wondering how guilds might evolve over time. If I put a hazel out on the future drip line of Chestnut, that's about 20 ft away, I think. And so, in many ways, the hazel and Chestnut aren't very close friends yet at that wide spacing. It would seem the baby trees need closer friends when they are that young. So, I'm wondering what plants might serve a supportive role in the interim while the trees are growing.

3) NURSERY BEDS
I have also been wondering if these plants, which are mostly in pots, could be planted in the ground at close spacing if we absolutely had to do that. (Pots are getting expensive). Could they be moved later? Or could I keep them small via coppicing and use them like the mother stock to propagate a future orchard.

Just trying to plan for what I might do if we don't get the land soon, or if there isn't enough cleared land, or if deer are a problem and we need to fence them in a smaller area than is ideal. Of course, we aren't stingy. We are willing to share if the opportunity arises. So far it hasn't. No else we know is on the same page as us.  

Hi,

for guilds understanding, I absolutely reccommend Toby Hemenway's 'Gaia's Garden'. That will help you to understand what ecosystemic functions are. Then you may use a resource like pfaf.org where you can sort suitable plants for your climate by their functionality. This way you will have a rough idea of what can go well with what.

Ooor...

you can go wild, plant every seed you can find, then thin any species not thriving and just help nature do her thing. Just don't be merciful with losers, nature is not.

About the nursery, it's common in old agriculture (before plastic tracks existed) to have a small seedling plot. Seedlings were transplanted, but some required a special treatment like sinking the soil so the roots don't break upon release, or being carried in a bucket of water so they don't dry waiting for the transplant. If you have tree seedlings in dormancy, it's much easier as long as you don't cut the roots too much.

I agree with Abraham's suggestion.

Speaking of guilds, this one is so pretty.

Toby Hemenway describes how to implement all things permaculture into a backyard scale and introduces permaculture's central message - Work with nature, not against her. He discusses all of the classic topics such as building and maintaining soil, catching and conserving water, and growing food forests.

https://permies.com/wiki/40202/Gaia-Garden-Toby-Hemenway

Here are some threads you or others might find interesting:

https://permies.com/t/133380/simple-steps-start-fruit-tree

https://permies.com/t/74182/Fruit-tree-guilds-edible-companion

We did something very much like you for two years while looking for the land we have now! Hundreds of trees and other plants in pots.

As a solution to the space and resources used by pots, we have transitioned to growing in air prune beds like these.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ab67eKU0ZeY

This is a new thing for us this fall so I can’t say from personal experience how it has gone for us. I do think there will be a limit how long we can leave trees in there, so it may not work as a long term holding solution for your situation.

We are planting as diverse a polyculture as possible under our planted out trees. Focusing on food and medicinal perennial plants, mainly. The only things I would specifically add to what you mentioned are comfrey and king stropharia mushrooms. We are hoping this year to have at leadt one comfrey per tree and stropharia in as many areas as we can manage. We have managed to propagate some morels from dried grocery morels last year and I want more of those too.

I acquired land about 14 months ago after several years of searching. We moved house twice during the search and each time carted many plants with us - tens the first time, hundreds the second!

Yesterday I planted many of the saplings that I have been cultivating. It was a really good feeling to finally give them a permanent home. I had been intending to plant them early next year but we have been having intense frosts and I became concerned that the pots might freeze solid, killing off some of the plants. Cue furious tree planting session!

Over the years I have lost quite a few of the plants that I have collected. I find, generally, that plants in pots are harder to keep alive and healthy than those in the ground. This is something I would caution anyone about collecting, as you are, large numbers of plants without an immediate home in mind.

Having so many plants that I collected taught me several things:

- What does well in my climate
- Which plants I enjoy and like to use
- Which plants need special attention (and thus Zone 0/1)
- Which plants aren't, in my opinion, worth the hassle!

It has also taught me that moving plants is time-consuming and that I want to do it as little as possible. Each winter I had to cluster all of the pots together, close to the house, to keep the frosts away. Each summer I would have to spread them out again in various places around the garden (for aesthetics and suitable microclimates).

I have also changed my mind regarding non-native species which has left me in something of a pickle: some of the trees and other plants that I have collected are not native to my area and I don't want to plant them on my land. I've had these plants for some time, however, so I'm reluctant to part with them!

All in all, I think it is worth collecting interesting plants and growing your collection ahead of having a home/land to plant them on. This is particularly true when you are cultivating from gathered seed or cuttings. In my opinion, spending lots of money or investing vast amounts of time in this is probably unnecessary - plants in pots rarely thrive and, particularly in the case of trees, may be stunted when the are transplanted into their final home.

(I'm aware that I'm not directly answering your questions and I apologise for that! I felt it was worth sharing my experience as it seems similar to your own journey).

Hi David,
Sounds like a good crop of plants you have.

One strategy that was suggested to me is to start with things much closer together (specifically fruit trees). If you want them 20 feet apart when they are fully grown, go ahead and plant then 10 feet apart. It will take 10 or 15 years to get big enough to be a problem. During that time you might get 5 or 10 years of fruit from the tree. Then you can cut out the middle one and let the others grow bigger. Or if a tree dies or gets eaten you have a spare over just a little ways. This means for the first 10 years or so, you don't have to walk as far to water or harvest. Also during that time you have easily made back the $35 bucks you spent on a nice tree. Its like a placeholder that gives you something back.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi David,
Sounds like a good crop of plants you have.

One strategy that was suggested to me is to start with things much closer together (specifically fruit trees). If you want them 20 feet apart when they are fully grown, go ahead and plant then 10 feet apart. It will take 10 or 15 years to get big enough to be a problem. During that time you might get 5 or 10 years of fruit from the tree. Then you can cut out the middle one and let the others grow bigger. Or if a tree dies or gets eaten you have a spare over just a little ways. This means for the first 10 years or so, you don't have to walk as far to water or harvest. Also during that time you have easily made back the $35 bucks you spent on a nice tree. Its like a placeholder that gives you something back.

Also, planting in a diamond pattern will fit more trees per acre than a square pattern, for the same distance between trees. We planted along swales so our distances vary a bit but are diamond-ish.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi David,
One strategy that was suggested to me is to start with things much closer together (specifically fruit trees). If you want them 20 feet apart when they are fully grown, go ahead and plant then 10 feet apart..

Good idea, Matt. It reminds me of how Sean over at Edible Acres plants extra trees in his guilds. He calls it "hedging his bets". In case one tree doesn't make it, one of the others will.

Andrea Locke wrote:We did something very much like you for two years while looking for the land we have now! Hundreds of trees and other plants in pots.

Glad to know I'm not alone. Feels overwhelming at times.

I have watched Sean's videos at Edible Acres about his air prune beds. Would I have to transport them as bare root plants when we move? I guess I just haven't figured out the logistics of that.

Andrea Locke wrote: The only things I would specifically add to what you mentioned are comfrey and king stropharia mushrooms.

I should have mentioned I do have comfrey. It was the first plant we bought and I should have enough to do what you recommend. Last year I experimented with using it as a weed barrier around some garden beds. Mixed results, but I love comfrey.

We have mushroom logs, but no wine caps yet. I guess since I know they grow on wood chips, I was thinking I would have to wait until we plant and mulch to do that. What do you think?

Thanks for the ideas.

Andrea Locke wrote:

Also, planting in a diamond pattern will fit more trees per acre than a square pattern...

Yes! Will for sure do this

Luke Mitchell wrote: It was a really good feeling to finally give them a permanent home.

I can imagine!

Luke Mitchell wrote:I find, generally, that plants in pots are harder to keep alive and healthy than those in the ground.

I agree wholeheartedly. My reasoning for buying so many has been the uncertainty of the times we are living in. I am not convinced I will be able get what I want later if I were to wait until after we have the land. Also, I was under the impression that we would be moved by now. Some things can't be helped. But I am learning a lot, like you mentioned, and since the learning curve is steep... I'm glad I'm spending my "waiting" time actively building knowledge and skills.

Luke Mitchell wrote: I felt it was worth sharing my experience as it seems similar to your own journey).

Thank you, Luke.

Abraham Palma wrote:About the nursery, it's common in old agriculture (before plastic tracks existed) to have a small seedling plot. Seedlings were transplanted, but some required a special treatment like sinking the soil so the roots don't break upon release, or being carried in a bucket of water so they don't dry waiting for the transplant. If you have tree seedlings in dormancy, it's much easier as long as you don't cut the roots too much.

Can you elaborate on the "sinking the soil so the roots don't break upon release"?