stephen wilson

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since Aug 06, 2023
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Recent posts by stephen wilson

Hi Peter,

thank you for the response. I will take on board your comment about the tolerances of the DSRx cores being very tight. Perhaps my only route for making the hanging fire is to keep to the parameters for the Vortex core that you mention and either size it to fit in the design aesthetic that I have ... or change the aesthetic.

As regards DSR design that I showed ... I can't recall where that one came from ... I just downloaded a bunch in the past. It's good to know that the DSR1 is now considered obselete/temperamental. Sounds like I need to do some revision on the development history of the batch rocket.

Regards

Stephen
FYI - I finally finished off my batch rocket pizza oven/parrilla a few weeks ago. She's working a treat. So many thanks for all your work on the sketchup designs and proper empirical observations.  https://permies.com/t/223663/Casting-batch-rocket-heat-source
5 months ago
Dear Rocketeers...

I have a couple of questions for the experts amongst us relating to a rather esoteric design requirement for a rocket mass heater.

The premise is that I would like to try and fit a batch box into the geometry of a hanging fire shown in Figure 1, with the thermal mass located above the fire, hidden out of the way. This means I would like to reduce the aspect ratio of the batch box.

A standard batch box is shown to the right of the hanging fire with a "cinemascope" version with reduced H/W to the right of this.

The three questions are:
• By how much can I reduce the height/width aspect ratio of the batch box without significant impact on the ability of the fire to burn properly?
• How much could I Iower the height of shoebox (H_shoebox) without damaging the vortex flame?
• What is the minimum thickness (T_flue) required for the flue between the burn chamber and the shoe box. In the design that I downloaded, T_flue is 40mm.

In Figure 1 :
• The normal design has H/W= 300/300, ,  H_shoebox =110mm, T_flue=40mm
• The “cinemascope” design has H/W = 300/500, H_shoebox= 80mm, T_flue =40mm

If anyone has tested any of these parameters ie H/W ratio,  H_shoebox , T_flue , I would love to hear what observations you made.

Thank you in advance

Stephen

5 months ago
Good morning everyone... sorry its been so long since my last post.

William asked me how it all went in the end...

Stephen, how did this oven turn out?



Pretty damn well is the answer... See figure 1 at the end. The batch rocket works well with no smoke except when lighting - the smoke only lasts a short while before the batch rocket really starts to roar and then all smoke disappears...

I've now had it running now around 10 times... I've been learning how it performs:

  • Performance
    The parrilla works a treat with a very hot zone above the batch rocket which then reduces in heat towards the front where it is not uncomfortable to stand. I tend to put pots on the super hot part for boiling things. In the middle I sear steak/tuna, at the front I cook eggs etc. See Figure 2. This redirects the exhaust gases from the burn tube around to the front of the hot plate before they pass down the sides and then finally up the chimney. There are baffles in the parrilla to make this work.

    The pizza oven works well. I load it with one batch to get up to heat, then start cooking pizza on the second load. The door remains closed except when I remove or put in new pizza. Each pizza takes about 10 minutes with a turn half way through. i can cook 2 pizzas at a time. See Figure 4
    For a 2 pizza cook and a dog-food cook-up (I have a very lucky dog)... I boil up 2 chickens in a pot with rice and veggies... which creates about 15L of stew... this uses 2 batches of wood
    When hosting a large group of people (say 12 guests x 4 pizzas plus steaks etc on parrilla) I get through maybe 4 batches of wood... say 60L.
    With a ventilation fan going everyone can sit in the outdoor kitchen without it being uncomfortable - if this was in the UK, I would guess that you'd not need the fan
    The front and tops of the oven get warm to the touch but nothing more than maybe skin temperature




  • In terms of thoughts and modifications,
    I suspect that my secondary air pipes will need replacement within a year or two. See Figure 5
    Keeping the heat in is critical to pizza temperatures, making a better seal would be a sensible task
    Finding a way to transmit/store more of the heat into the pizza chamber might be a good idea perhaps with an extra turn in the burn tube before it exits the pizza chamber
    Having thicker insulation under the floor might be a good idea. Presently it has 4" of EPS then perlite concrete base then some loose fill.
    Finding a low cost supplier of bulk perlite is critical... just buying from the garden centre is way too expensive




  • Tasks still to do:

  • Put handle and insulation on "secondary" batch rocket door
    Find an oven thermometer that works
    Cast a chimney for the back of the parilla


  • Comment on permie member concerns:

    Getting to a high enough temperature:  I don't have temperature data yet, but the fact that the pizza is delicious is the best data point that I could have. The objective was to get the pizza oven up to temperature. Rather than make it a dirty black oven I was hoping I could use other design concepts to reach that objective. These concepts were: (i) insulating the hell out of all parts of the oven (ii) trying to minimise any thermal bridging  (iii) minimise hot air leaks from the pizza oven (iv) allow the hottest "exterior" parts of the batch rocket to heat the air in the oven (this concept arose after some advice from Fox James ... so many thanks to him). To be clear on that last point the hottest part of the batch oven is at the back, sides and top of the burn tube. These parts are exposed to air that can freely circulate up into the pizza oven. The batch rocket itself sits on 2 thermal insulating bricks. The front of the batch rocket and underneath is partially blocked off with loose perlite. So in a thermal sense the batch rocket kind of sits inside the pizza oven.

    Losing too much heat up the burn tube: By swapping out a perlite insulating tube for a piece of well pipe the hottest gases coming out of the batch rocket now passes some of their heat into this thick cast iron tube which sits inside the pizza oven. At the top of this tube is an insulating piece of perlite to minimise heat loss via conduction from this tube up to the parilla. I figured the parilla would get hot enough with just the exhaust gases.

    I will post more pictures and provide temperature data as soon as I have some.

    One other point... here in Costa Rica, temperatures don't drop below 20 degrees ever. Even the ground temperature stays above that. I'm wondering whether this might play a role in enabling this oven to work so well.

    All the best

    Stephen


    5 months ago
    You may know very little about such things but your points are well made.

    I would add that your intuition is (I think) working toward the distinction that I made earlier between the science (ie the reality) and the engineering (ie how we tap into that reality with a system that can try to deliver on what we want.

    Unfortunately many people have limited backgrounds in either science or engineering which it makes it really hard to get to the nub of an issue and thus target what is required. That is not to denigrate the "tinkerers" amongst us with the hands-on practical knowledge of system design.

    Anyhow I'll get off my high horse before I get pushed off.... and I wondered if anyone on Permies has ever worked with, or seen one of these low elevation systems:

    [youtube]https://duckduckgo.com/?q=video+of+vortex+turbine+in+river&t=newext&atb=v364-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D7w9rxf6UutA[/youtube]
    1 year ago

    Louis Romain wrote:Hi permies,

    There is no head pressure, so I am thinking this type of system https://waterotor.com/.



    There must be some "head pressure" ie elevation or the river wouldn't flow.

    Here's a type of system that might suit your setup with low elevation and high flow....

    https://www.turbulent.be/

    Regards

    Stephen
    1 year ago
    Qualitative estimates can sometimes be a little error-prone. I would recommend putting some numbers to this.

    Power = Flow-rate x Head x density x gravitational constant x efficiency.  You have good estimates for everything except elevation. So let's just assume you have a small elevation change of say 0.5m, the power generated at 100% efficiency would be.

    Power (W) = 3.81 x 0.5 x 1000 x 10 = 19050 W = 19.5 kW

    So that's a notional estimate of available power based on an elevation change of 0.5m.

    Your setup has an abundance of flow and a probable lack of elevation change. So firstly measure that elevation change to get a handle on it.
    I recommend you speak to someone with some knowledge of how/whether you can tap into this source with a properly engineered system.

    As regards many of the comments here, they seem to be focussed largely on velocity when clearly velocity is a function of flow-rate and cross-sectional area. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

    So I would conclude by saying there's power there that could power your home. However you need to measure your elevation then find out the answer to an engineering question - ie is there a system design that can tap into this power source with a high efficiency?

    1 year ago

    Fox James wrote:Not  necessarily, my ovens are designed to hold heat for long periods and I do over spec the insulation!
    You can join the halves with steel wire, my pizza ovens use 100mm long stainless staples to hold the segments together but allow for expansion.
    I think you could just wrap some wire around, maybe 1.5-2mm stainless would do it and still expand ok.
    Another alternative might be to build a box around  the core and back fill with loose vermiculite, maybe even find a oversize metal tube to surround the riser and back fill with vermiculite. (Perlite might work)



    Thanks for the Tip Fox.

    On another note... don't suppose you could recommend an insulating perlite mix recipe for a riser. I was thinking 3 Perlite, 1 Ciment, 1 Sand, 1 Fireclay,,,, or maybe i can go even lighter with say 4, 1,1,1?

    I would like to make the mix fairly light because I've got to put this up through the roof. I will be using a 150mm cardboard tube for the inner part of the mould, and have welded up a 230mm diameter steel tube from 1mm steel sheet.

    Regards

    Stephen
    1 year ago

    Scott Weinberg wrote:

    Width of sides?
    Height of dome?
    Depth of dome?  (front to back)

    Cheers
    Scott



    Scott,

    As regards your question on size... presently my design plan has dimensions for Height, Width,Depth of:

    286mm Height
    993mm Width
    805mm Depth

    However as we all know, plans are made for changing and I'm going to reduce that width down by about 100mm.

    The key design parameter is that I'm using a catenary curve for the arch.

    Regards

    Stephen

    1 year ago
    Here's a picture of the firebrick mould that i made...

    It consists of a slab of wood about 250mm wide and about 1m long.

    It has small rebates cut in it about 15mm deep/wide into which i can fit plastic "tablilla" ... these are pieces of offcut plastic ceiling tongue and groove. These moulds give me rectinlinear bricks.

    If I need bricks for the arches I use angled separators which you can see in the foto with a defined angle on them. The separator that i'm removing in the foto is a 6 degree separator to give me a 6 degree brick.





    1 year ago
    Here's a vertical section through the whole structure, facing the front.

    At the level of the batch rocket, the spaces between the inner insulating wall and the middle insulating wall, plus the space between the middle insulating wall and the outer concrete structural wall, will be back filled with loose perlite.


    ...
    1 year ago