Need advice on stable access to water

Hello everyone!  I'm new here.  I'm a big time off grid/permaculture wanna be!

Anyways, I'm currently in the burbs with my nice muni water connection.  But, I wanna go off-grid and be surrounded by nature.  And most of those places do not have a water connection.  I'm a big time grower.  I want at least 50+ fruit trees and 50+ nut trees and a huge amount of berries and a big vegetable garden.

So, fairly large amounts of Water is REAAALLLY important to me.  The droughts in most of the US, are just getting worse.  I've heard of wells going dry.
You can't really truck in water for a garden or a bunch of fruit trees.  

I want a stable water source, even in the worst drought.  and storing it in a tank isn't going to be enough: I mean a 20,000$ tank holds about 20K gallons which is about enough for 1 month of watering at the most.  Sure, I know all the basics of mulching really heavily, etc.

Assume, I have some flexibility in choosing the location of my future homestead.  But I can't go anywhere really humid/hot in the summer: east coast won't do.
So how does one go about getting a stable water source?  do you just do a well and roll the dice?  if it goes dry, just drill another?  how do you make sure it's a good well?     or pick a place with a high enough water table that makes it easy to drill another well? is that even realistic on the west coast?

I mean, even places with a decent amount of rain here on the west coast still get very dry for about 4 or 5 months.

Thanks for any insights you may have!

Welcome to the forum!

We have owned an off grid property out in West Texas for many many years.

Rainwater catchment is the only way to go.

What kind of a structure do you plan to live in?

Make the roof of that structure your source of water.

I would like to recommend the work of Brad Lancaster:

https://permies.com/wiki/brad-lancaster





Next learn how to grow drought tolerant trees and plants.

https://permies.com/t/219636/permaculture/DROUGHT-manage

https://permies.com/t/190304/drought-proof-permaculture-project

Next learn dryland farming methods:

https://permies.com/t/40/58559/Big-Fat-Thread-Dryland-Farming

These ought to keep you busy at least for a few days!

I really like the idea of a variety of redundancies can combined help prevent disaster. Don't rely on only one system for your water needs, have alternatives in case your primary one doesn't meet demand.

I rely primarily on plumbed water for my household (in your case from a well) but I supplement that with rainwater catchment. The plumbed water is good for all uses and reliable so I don't worry about making rainwater potable but that could be an additional step you have in increasing your homesteads resilience to drought. I also like the idea of augmenting landscapes into passive water collection so in the rainy months you can really benefit from rainwater collection.

You may be able to find a property with a natural spring on it but that is like striking gold.

Here is something I came across early on in my Permie Journey.  It may give you some comfort or confidence.  



27,154 gallons is an inch of rain per acre.  Think of your average rain event in the area you are considering.  If you are getting less than an inch of rain per event, simply increasing your Organic matter by 1% allows one to keep it all in the top 12 inches of your soil profile.  

I quickly realized, it is not how much I get (my land only saw 24 inches a year in a good year); but how much I KEPT.  Make sure there are plants growing at all times (stems to break the soil crust allowing absorbtion.)   Make sure there is a living root in the ground to increase organic matter.  Slow the water if on a slope to increase time to absorb.  

My 4 rules are:

Slow it
Spread it
Absorb it
Keep it higher for longer (in elevation)

If one can do this in the Arizona desert with good management practices, anyone can have enough water without expensive irrigation.

John Daily lives in Australia with 15 inches of rain. His only water, for household and crops is rain catchment. Before you abandon catchment, peruse his thread on it here.

pascal billford wrote: I'm a big time grower.  I want at least 50+ fruit trees and 50+ nut trees and a huge amount of berries and a big vegetable garden.

Do you plan on growing just for your family, or for sale? For sale does usually mean you have to have more "perfect" fruit and veg.  I only grow for my family and some to share with people who know that fruit doesn't have to look perfect. Most of my fruit trees get minimal extra water, and only after 4 weeks of drought. As I continue to improve my soil, they need less and less support. Annuals do tend to demand more water than perennials.

So, fairly large amounts of Water is REAAALLLY important to me.  The droughts in most of the US, are just getting worse.  I've heard of wells going dry.

Yes, not all  wells are created equal. However, how you manage your property can do wonders to support a well. Slow infiltrating ponds high on the landscape and lots of natural forest are your friends in that regard. We bought a chunk of land just to be a buffer zone when we realized it was likely to turn into a huge home with grass all around it if we didn't buy it ourselves.

I want a stable water source, even in the worst drought.  and storing it in a tank isn't going to be enough: I mean a 20,000$ tank holds about 20K gallons which is about enough for 1 month of watering at the most.

My neighbors dug/blasted a quarry and it fills every winter and irrigates their corn field every summer. And they sold the gravel for income. So I would think outside the box on this one. Look for natural spots on the land where micro-dams can hold the rain.

Sure, I know all the basics of mulching really heavily, etc.

Mulch is not always the best approach.  They're good for sandy soil, but not so good for my ecosystem. Polycultures help. As mentioned, improving the soil helps immensely. Biochar helps. In my ecosystem, more soil and less rocks help, unless the rocks are on the surface acting as a mulch and dew catchers.

I mean, even places with a decent amount of rain here on the west coast still get very dry for about 4 or 5 months.

Yes, this is a huge issue, and the amount and timing of the rain is shifting as the weather patterns shift. The north west coast gets rain in the winter when it's too dark to grow anything, and it's too dry in the summer when we want to produce food other than apples and plums (which grow like crazy with no care).  Animals are a big part of shifting calories from summer to winter.

Choosing where to live is key, but no matter what you choose, the land itself will choose what works for it. Observe, observe, observe and make small changes until you understand what the land needs.

In many places, "water rights" are life or death, and have been for a long time. It doesn't matter how nice the property is -- if you can't get water, you can't do much.

In the future, like it or not, I think "water rights" including wells may become a lot more prevalent. I plan to get my well registered so I'm on the list. So it goes.

Thanks for all the responses!  So many great ideas here.

I really like that idea of blasting a whole in the ground to catch more water.   It seems, you could probably make that really big and just make your own little pond, or a big pond!  that's a really fantastic.  If you have the space, i guess there's no limit to how big it could be right?  


as for water catchment from the roof, It's somewhat effective.  It helps a little but doesn't get you all the way there.  if you run the numbers. 1500 sq foot roof * 24 inches of rain yearly only yields 3000 cubic feet which is about 20,000 gallons, about one months worth of water.  and the west coast is dry usually anywhere from 4 month all way up to 9 or 10 months in some parts of california.  Even Oregon is dry for at least 3 or 4 months.

In the west, water gets allocated on a seniority system. Those who have been using the water the longest get the first use of the water, and if there is any left over, then people with younger rights can use the water. I am blessed to have the most senior water rights in my area, so even if water gets cut-off to outlying areas, I can still irrigate my fields.

When purchasing water rights, the senior shares cost more than the junior shares. The senior shares are more consistent and reliable.

When building new water retention structures in open land, I have found that the smallest, easiest to construct structures are also the most effective and reliable.

pascal billford wrote:I really like that idea of blasting a whole in the ground to catch more water.   It seems, you could probably make that really big and just make your own little pond, or a big pond!  that's a really fantastic.  

Just some additional thoughts, I have a great big hole in the ground.  maybe 50 ft by 50 ft and 25 ft deep.

It does not hold water.  It was a pond when I bought the property though to be it is not sustainable to keep it fill by using my well water.

Wells are a very expensive to have dug so I bought a property that already had a well.

Here is a topic that I started that might be of interest to you or other folks:

https://permies.com/t/138768/Water-Plants-Trees-Drought-Conditions

Water access in the western states can be an issue. In Oregon a landowner doesn't own the water beneath their feet it belongs to the state. A landowner can water a 1/2 acre personal use garden. You can't just dig a hole and collect water. You can't just pull water from a stream/river. You can harvest rainwater off of your roof. You may have seen some recent You-Tube shorts on the state going after some small farms in Oregon, some of those stem from illegal use of water for a commercial venture. Research before you commit is all I can suggest, it depends on where you land.

Robert is making some really valid points.

We bought property with a well and a pond.

The pond doesn't hold water.  We tried to go the bentonite clay route and the pond still does not hold water.  A good rain will fill the pond half way though my theory is the ground it just too rocky to allow the pond to hold water.  The rocks act like sieve and drain the pond.

Wells also can run dry.  Having property doesn't mean folks can have a well.

Having a roof and a water tank doesn't mean folks will have water.

Buying property that already has a well is the best step and a pond like I did is a plus.

In regards to ponds and dry areas, another factor would be the rate of evaporation. A pond may hold water, but if not deep enough can evaporate to mud.

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:In regards to ponds and dry areas, another factor would be the rate of evaporation. A pond may hold water, but if not deep enough can evaporate to mud.

If the pond is not sealed, it may be seeping in as well as evaporating. If the goal is to have water for irrigation, both of these aren't great. But if the goal is to slow winter runoff and give it time to soak in deeply, a shallow pond can be similar to what people say that a swale can do. Both are tools for certain ecosystems, but not for *every* ecosystem.

In my area most of the bigger cities and burbs get their water from the Ohio River. The smaller municipal water outfits get theirs from wells. There have been a few serious droughts over the years, 1937 was bad I'm told, and I remember 1988 when they shut down barge traffic and sealed the dams tight so it wouldn't drop below the city intake pipes.

Historically and culturally though, water hasn't been a big concern, and little is heard about it from government or anyone else, but it is becoming a very serious issue for those with open eyes and especially those who like to garden. But it is still fine to collect water, drill wells, build ponds or whatever else you might want to do. If I was able to do so I would buy some land low down in one of the creek valleys and get a bunch of very large tanks to fill from the creek in late winter or spring. And drill a well. And I wouldn't tell anybody.

Mark Reed wrote: If I was able to do so I would buy some land low down in one of the creek valleys and get a bunch of very large tanks to fill from the creek in late winter or spring.

I would be careful about going too "low down". We had an "Atmospheric River" a few years back and far too many houses were badly damaged by flooding. This was in places that had no living memory of flooding as well as places that were known for it.

We've seen a lot of extreme weather in the last 5 years where I live. We were in the typical August drought when our average monthly rainfall is 24 mm. Just 2 days of rain last week put us over twice the monthly average.  The month when we get the highest average rainfall has shifted later into winter in the last 10 years.

This is why I'm so glad that permies encourages people to use multiple approaches to key things like water.  Why we encourage people to plant polycultures and not rely on single key crops. Why we encourage people to build their soil, because healthy soil is better able to cope with extreme events. And why "care of the people" is on the list - it's important to build community and support others to spread our resilience out!

Choosing to live in a place with more reliable and consistent rainfall may be an easier path for water security than choosing, like I do, to live in a desert.

Your right about not going too far down. I had my date wrong on the historic drought, the bad one before 1988 was in 1936, not 37. The giant flood was in 1937. The big flood that I remember was in 1963. We lived right by the river then and it went from creeping up in the back yard to just inches under the second floor, overnight. My older brother carried us littler kids out to the car and carted us up the hill to our grandparent's house in the middle of the night. Talk about an atmospheric river, nearly the whole of the Ohio valley drainage got dumped on all at the same time, stories I was told by the older folks about 1937 were even more dramatic. I resolved then that I would never live where a river can get me.

Normal pool of the river in my area is about 450 feet above sea level, I think in 37 the level hit about 480.  My house is about 850 and my creek valley is about 500, so it's pretty safe from river backwater, but my creek is small and the hills surrounding it are very steep.  It doesn't run at all in summer except during a cloud burst when the whole valley is subject to flash floods which are even worse than river floods because at least you have a minute to get out of the river's way. You can get more than a bit damp from a flash flood even if it isn't raining where you are. It's best when you hear it not to waste time wondering what it is, just start climbing.

There are those Goldilocks places though, high enough above the river in a bigger wider valley.  The valley floor is flat and pretty, and great for day-to-day activities like gardening and playing but your house should not be in that flat part, put it up a little higher at the base of the hill. Preferably partially underground facing south, but you don't want the hill behind you to be overly steep.  These valleys are beautiful, and I expect for the immediate future will have plenty of water for storing in the winter and are low enough down that wells are pretty easily drilled. There is even an occasional spring to be found but they are much rarer than they used to be. I would also love to have a big pond, but I would want to use it for fishing, rather than irrigation. The valleys aren't good for ponds either unless you dam the creek itself which would be a gigantic undertaking. Dams on bigger creeks is one thing the authorities do take notice of. Even putting a concrete ford across one is frowned on, I've never heard of a private individual trying to dam one.

Sometimes I think those who grew up and are used to a dry climate are at bit of an advantage because they are used to it, but this gradual drying out of everything, pretty much every year is alien to me. Few of the dry land techniques I've read about would work here because it isn't consistently or predictably dry land. By averages we get as much rain as we ever did just not in a way that is friendly to growing things.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:Choosing to live in a place with more reliable and consistent rainfall may be an easier path for water security than choosing, like I do, to live in a desert.

However, I've heard of some epic floods in deserts when it does rain, so even there, it pays to plan ahead and be aware of where heavy rain is likely to flow.

Moved to the Great Lakes region. Predictions say we’ll be getting more rain, not less, so choose property for elevation, drainage, and catchment features carefully. We have a lot of clay, so making large ponds shouldn’t be any problem. Also, tornado alley is supposed to be extending east so you might want to go into Eastern Ohio away from the plains.  Hopefully, the more hilly land will hinder larger tornadoes. Land values are going up, but you can still find some good deals.

Here's a picture of my pond, that does hold water. But in the last decade os so, eroding silt has raised the pond floor, now the pond evaporates in our seasonal drought. This is less than one quarter of the pond's footprint.

That looks about like my pond only a bit bigger and mine is almost totally dry right now. I don't use it for irrigation but if I did would have been completely dry months ago. When I came here, I dug little drainage channels to direct about three acres of runoff into it and it sort of worked. It now fills completely and sometimes even overflows in the winter but still dries up in summer.  I suppose it was dug out in the early 19th century by the inhabitants of the log homestead that was here back then, only the foundation and chimney remain of it now.

There are lots of pioneer homesites in my neighborhood, some on the ridge tops and some in the valleys. Those on the ridges almost all have one of these dug out ponds, those in the valley's must have had springs. These little ridge top ponds do not have water draining into them, they are just dug our circular depressions often with a rock wall around it. Some of the valley ones have remains of what I'm guessing were spring houses. My only guess as to the general environment then, is that all of these were fed by springs even the ones on the ridges, but all of that water is gone now.  When the original forests were cut the soil and the ability to store water from our steep hills went with them and I'm afraid, never to return.  

An idea I'm studying on now is to redirect my drainage channels from those three acres into a series of partially buried tanks. Protected from evaporation and larger volume than the mud puddle, it might give me enough water for my gardens but of course I would have to pump it. Forty years ago, I would have just scrounged some tanks and grabbed my shovel but now I'd have to pay money for it and that's a problem. I knew this was on the horizon back then, but I didn't think it would happen this fast.

Currently here in South Australia at the end of what is normally a wet winter, there are a great number of graziers who are in desperate need of soil moisture to sustain pasture growth for their grazing live stock.
So why is it that white European settlers have never really learned the art of proactively managing soil moisture reserves in the many countries that they have invaded. Cool burning of grassland associated with trees was an art practiced by most indigenous people of these lands, yet what we as newcomers have never learned is that the act of burning the grass with a cool fire, actually stimulates saprophytic fungi to set up a biological process in conjunction with mychorrhizal fungi associated with the tree roots to raise water stored in the subsoil up to the topsoil.
Of course to sustain our folly, imposed prohibited burning periods now ensure that this practice is seldom revisited.

I haven't seen this video, it popped up in my feed... But we know that in the right conditions making a spring is possible. The great Sepp Holzer does it!

There is no one-size-fits-all for water access, especially here in the western U.S.

Where I lived in the SoCal desert, well water was plentiful -- at 270 feet down (plus another 150 feet to have it reliable) all of that drilled through rock. In 1999 my well cost $56,000, but it would do 70gpm all day long.

Here in south-central Montana, my well is only about 20 feet deep, good water but very hard, about 10gpm. 50 feet to the west the water is so alkali it's unusable. Five miles from here, they haul water from town. My neighbor just down the hill has a mini swamp in his pasture.

Where I lived before (further west in MT) you could drive a sandpoint and have lots of water, tho better test shallow water for natural arsenic. Half a mile upslope, water was at 1500 feet if you even found any. As a fair general rule, water depth is about the same as the surface of the nearest major river.

Point is -- don't guess. Find an experienced water professional, and ask about a specific property, not "the area". Anything less than absolutely specific is meaningless. Most well drillers know what's likely to work or not. And if you're off-grid, that limits your options. Tho there used to be windmills all over, precisely to pump water off-grid.

Catchment water is all well and good until you have a drought year and suddenly there isn't any for months on end. Much of the American west gets only 10-15 inches per year, half in winter.

I have a summer irrigation ditch here that comes off the river, it's paid for as part of my taxes. Otherwise I wouldn't be growin' no garden, and the apple trees wouldn't produce much. That's something to look into. Note that ditch rights don't always exist, even if the ditch runs through the property.