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I want to build a little hill

Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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posted 8 years ago

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We took down some rotting retaining walls and I don't think we need to put them back up again as long as I plant the heck out of the space. Which I have plans to do. But I need to be able to get up and down to the row where I will plant in order to care for things. When we took down some trees I just had them pile some chips at the edge of where the retaining wall used to be and that has packed down some already (I know it will go down down down) but makes a nice ramp going up. Which makes me think if I can build up just a wedge over where the chips are, I think I can get a small hill. Bonus is that it will break up the long straight edge at the fence line. But I don't have a lot of spare dirt at the moment so I am thinking this will be built up over time. My thought is to take some of the leftover broken cement and just make a casual outline on each side and start throwing in whatever I can, twigs, weeds, the occasional excess dirt. I will keep adding cement around the edges as it gets taller and then throwing things inside to build it up over time.

I know things will break down and the hill will sink but eventually, it should make a small hill, right?

So, does this seem like a good idea? Is there a better way to go about it?

(And all this is moot if my contractor lets me know he has some clean fill dirt that needs a home but thus far, no extra dirt.)

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My goal? To create a wildlife habitat on our surburban (almost rural) property using mostly California native plants and inspire others to do the same.
Also to learn how to grow some edibles - more than the herbs I have grown before.

Cristo Balete

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Location: In the woods, West Coast USA

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Susan, this hill you want to make, do you mean a hugelkultur hill? With bark chips on the bottom of it, some sticks, then maybe dirt, then plant in that?

I'm not sure how the cement chunks will stay in place if there is heavy dirt behind them. They might be better used for drainage. You can get a lot of rainfall there in the winter, so water starts running fast, right? Now that you've removed trees is there the possibility of erosion? they call small chunks of cement rip-rap and it's very expensive, so if already have it and can use it a place where water will run, it's valuable stuff. Do you have clay soil or loam?

Here's what happened to my hugelkulture hill. Because the west coast doesn't get rain in the summer it was very difficult to keep the wood under the dirt wet enough to be rotting. Voles and mice built tunnels into the wood, and it opened up the small hill to drying wind and rodents. It was very depressing to take it all apart again, a lot of work.

I now do hugel trenches, digging 18" trenches and putting soaked wood and branches, rotted wood in them, covering them back up with the dirt, mulching heavily over the top. Everything stays wet and rotting, which is the point of a hugel to plant in.

If you want a tidy edge, you can use cinder blocks. You should dig a trench into the ground lower than the blocks to the place the first row, then one more row on top of that, slightly sunken into the soil to keep the blocks in place would make a 6" edge. Place them hole side up, and place the top row so that the crack between two blocks is covered by one block on top. Don't stack them exactly in line going up. If you want a higher block wall, you'll need to solidify it with mortar or rebar pounded into each hole, built so the wall is leaning into the hill at a slight angle, never straight up. The forces against walls, as you probably saw with your old one, are huge, and they have to be able to withstand heavy, water-saturated soils. You can fill the holes in the cinder block edges with dirt and plant in those holes.

Be sure to find out what kind of soil your contractor is going to bring you. If it's heavy clay you should amend it with river sand, or granite sand and lots of compost. Always put thick leaf or mowed weed mulch over clay soil to keep it from being exposed to the sun.

An important distinction: Permaculture is not the same kind of gardening as organic gardening.
Mediterranean climate hugel trenches, fabuluous clay soil high in nutrients, self-watering containers with hugel layers, keyhole composting with low hugel raised beds, thick Back to Eden Wood chips mulch (distinguished from Bark chips), using as many native plants as possible....all drought tolerant.

Susan Taylor Brown

Posts: 151

Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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posted 8 years ago

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Cristo, thanks for all the info. I realize I wasn't super clear on my part.

How depressing to have to take apart a hugel you had spent so much time on! I built my first hugel telling myself I was just doing it to build soil but I know it is going to stink to take it apart in the next year or two.

What I am trying to figure out how to do is to make easy access to that ledge where the dog is standing in my first post. It runs about 250 feet and I will be planting a lot of baby trees that I will have to, well, baby for a while. So something I can walk on. No need for wheelbarrow width but I need to be able to get up to that level to maintain everything that is going to be planted at the fence line.

The little slope leading up to it now is just a bunch of wood chips and leaf clippings that the chipper guy piled there. 6 months ago it was above the ledge so, lots of shrinkage. I have short legs so it is already a step up for me but it is still the easiest way to get up there. Maybe what I should do is a small retaining wall with the cement, on either side of that slope coming out from the ledge? Then put some rocks or planks on it to walk up? Then as it sinks I can take out the material I use for steps and add to it?

The dog, of course, has no problem getting up on the ledge. Stinking athletic dog.

Cristo Balete

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Location: In the woods, West Coast USA

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Susan,

Just to make sure I understand, the dog is standing on, let's call it Ledge No. 1, and Ledge No. 2 is at the level of the dog's back? And you need a ramp up to each Ledge? It looks like a foot-worn path is already going across in front of the dog? Although you say not necessarily wide enough for a wheelbarrow, so you don't intend to roll anything up to those ledges? So what about a stacked cement set of stairs?

From a design perspective, since you are talking about 250 feet, I would say that falls into the Grand Scale category. So whatever you do here ought to be grand, like a 4 foot wide path/ramp to the ledges, 4 foot wide stone steps going up them. If you want to do a stacked cement retaining wall (be very careful that it is well done and solid, starting down below soil level, leaning back into the hillside) is it a prominent view from your backyard? or patio? or windows from your house? You'll want to be pleased every time you look at that wall, and have plants cascading down over it, have it beckon you and your visitors out to it. It could even curve around in a half circle at one end into a seating wall.

I think a ramp to those trees would be too steep and possibly slippery in the winter. I would not put it where it's sunken. Water will settle in it in the winter and make it sloppy, messy and slippery. The raised area where the log is looks solid and would be a good place for a ramp or a wide crushed-gravel or stone paver path, roomy enough for two people to walk along and admire your work when everything is in place and plants start to mature. You can always make the path smaller later if you change your mind, but I have never regretted a wide and roomy path.

I have what I thought was a rather gentle slope, that I often went down with my hands full, and could feel the occasional slip in the mud. In order to make it safer and look good, I dug out steps, lined them with weed block fabric, large gravel, and pounded in pieces of treated wood on the front edge.

Embrace the ledge/ ledges. Make them a focal point. They look as if you could add cement chunks or stone wall gradually, as you get them, and not have to do it all at once if you don't want to. Putting something temporary is extra work if you know how you want it to be in the future.

Access from the top end of the ledges (behind the dog) would be good for dragging things downhill and taking advantage of gravity. Sliding mulch or gravel or soil amendments on a large piece of shade cloth would be easy and avoid the steps.

Do you have a bird's eye view drawing of how you want this area to be, with sizes, directions of sun and shade?

Cristo Balete

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Location: In the woods, West Coast USA

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Here is a nice video of basic dry stone stacking for a wall

https://youtu.be/d3lcAUsvvnA

Susan Taylor Brown

Posts: 151

Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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posted 8 years ago

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Thank you, Cristo, for giving me so much to think about with regard to the ledge and access.

There will be a permanent fence going up to replace that temporary fencing, some time in the next year or so (lots of fencing needed) so while I think the gravity idea is great, I don't think it will work for me here. I plant to plant a hedgerow the entire length of frontage road for a bit more privacy. That's what I need to be able to access the first few years.

No intention to roll anything up or down the ledge that has the fence. The very top ledge, closest to the fence, will be for planting. (The permanent fence will likely move to the other side of the trees. The main ledge, where the dog is standing, is mostly for her to run like the crazy guard dog she is. ) But we do have a slope to use gravity to our advantage coming from the deck.

A few other photos of the space.

One, I am standing on the deck looking down at the ledges. There used to be more steps down but they are very oddly spaced and a tripping hazard. The rest will come out eventually. For now we have mostly just a sloped descent and we can put in a railing as we age.

Another angle of the sloped walkway down from the deck.

And a before picture before the grading was done. Alas it was pouring rain and the guy misunderstood what I wanted when he came and pulled down the old stuff so I am trying to work with what he left me.

I think your idea of just cement steps up, somewhere in the middle, would work. I COULD walk up it from the far end but I know as I age, I will want to get up there closer.

This may or may not be a grand scale thing. It isn't anything I see from the house, so that part doesn't matter. But we are trying to not do retaining walls there if we don't have to. (An engineer was out for another reason and took a look and said we didn't need one.) We are reusing all the old cement for some other retaining walls but if there is anything left, I can maybe use it for steps.

Thanks for the video clip too. I appreciate you talking through this with me so I can try to figure it out. It's a process.

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Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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posted 8 years ago

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Cristo, this might help more. Same original photo but labeled.

What is missing is a way for me to easily get on the ledge where the dog is. Up toward the deck it is too steep for my short legs. So I think your idea of steps up somewhere will be the way to go. Perhaps I will just spread those chips that are piled in the middle, jutting out from the ledge, and put the steps there.

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Cristo Balete

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Location: In the woods, West Coast USA

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posted 8 years ago

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Sara, great photos, and I see what you are talking about, a dog-run path with a ledge uphill from it you plan to plant with privacy trees/bushes. It looks like you have a view of that path/ledge from the deck, so even if it's mostly for the dog, it seems very useful for everyone. It even looks like it disappears down on the low end, always a compelling garden feature. You've got a lot of room, there, and the scale of it gives you a lot of leeway.

For what it's worth, and just my experience controlling erosion on the side of a hill, I can almost guarantee you that ledge will erode with one winter of heavy rainfall and dump onto that dog run/path. It is already slanted into the hill at a good angle back into the hillside to put a stone wall against it, and you could really take advantage of that, and save yourself a lot of work before it starts sliding. A stone wall there will also add a lot of value to your property for a very long time if done properly.

Maybe it's just me, but I think rock walls look great just about anywhere as hardscape that you will enjoy seeing from the deck, It seems too steep an edge to just plant for erosion, and you may not want to spend the water on keeping ground cover plants alive along it for 250 feet, and still run the risk of erosion around plants. The previous owners found that zone an issue, which is probably why they put the wall there.

Dry stack steps in the middle of that ledge (or at your most-used point) would give you access in a clean and sturdy way. 5"-6" per step is a very easy rise. My photo below is treated 4x4s with rebar pounded in on both ends. You've probably discovered that slope up to your deck becomes slippery once it starts raining. The slope where I put the steps was less steep than that, but I am always glad to use them, and like to see them there.

That dog run.path if it were a crushed gravel path (weed block fabric and 1 1/2" crushed (not round) gravel) it would keep that path from eroding, which I suspect it will do, too, as the water shoots down that hill, help keep the dog feet clean, and your feet clean, help keep mud off the deck and from getting into the house, and give you garden views from that end of the property. If your privacy trees/bushes are back even farther, you may want to create a seating area up on the ledge at some point. It looks shady, and a great place to sit. A really great bench would also give you a place to set tools, water, camera, etc., down while being out there. I rarely go outside without the camera. Something interesting almost always happens in a big rural place like that, and if there's nothing but mud around it makes it difficult to be there.

But, of course, however you use it most is what counts. Hope this helps.

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Cristo Balete

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Location: In the woods, West Coast USA

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posted 8 years ago

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The 4x4 steps are 18 inches from front to back, so I chipped out a 22" flat spot, put the 4x4 at the back edge, which made the next step, then flattened 22 inches behind the 4x4, and so on. For a 6 inch step use a 6x6. This is the video that helped me figure out how to do this:

https://youtu.be/0NZKtGVAWGU

A steeper slope would cause the depth of the step to be less, but flatten behind the 4x4 or 6x6 until there is a 4" or 6" edge to place the next piece of wood against.

Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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Hi Cristo,
Thank you so very very much for sharing with me. Gosh I never get tired of brainstorming what do in the yard. So thanks for indulging me.

Hubby spends a lot of time at the day job making the money that allows us to live out here so in many cases, I am on my own. I run things by him for his final veto power but pretty much, the yard is mind. So I do the planning and find the help to make it happen since I am not good at much of this myself. I can stack sticks and rocks, that's about it.

Anyway, I love your steps and I am thinking maybe that is what we do when we replace the horrible steep steps down from the other end of the deck. Eventually. Thanks for the pictures so I can show them to the crew that is helping me with the other walls.

That back part of the yard is my mostly wild zone, plus a place for the dog to go crazy. I have lots of plans for thick wildlife friendly plantings and a place to sit near the future water feature and enjoy it all. :_

And I agree with you that rock walls add so much! We have very little habitat, yet, for lizards and snakes (though we do have a few critters around) and I love building homes for them. The first slope we had to address was the front one. It had never been planted and the yard up by the house was almost all cement, so water just went sheeting off the cement and down the front slope. The cement had cracked in places and was actually started to tip up to go down the hill. So we put a rock wall at the top and the bottom of the hill. (We did some things wrong but hope we can fix it over time.) They had a pipe sticking out of the side of the slope and water from 3 downspouts just shot out the pipe and again, right down the hill. We redirected the downspout water to a rain garden at the base of the driveway. We also removed most of the cement to allow more water to soak in up top.

Next up is the slope at the front end of the back yard, closest to the deck and the house. The crew has started on that. They will reuse the old cement we took out of the front yard and build terraces and steps for access. (While also installing the permanent fence.)

After that, we can tackle this other chunk of slope.

I don't know what I am going to do with coming down from the deck at this end. I am not sorry we removed the aggregate steps but you are right in that the slope itself is slippery in the winter. We will do a railing once we figure out a permanent solution. I do think I want a slope of some kind there because if we are in a walker or a wheelchair (this is our age in place home) a slope will be so much easier than steps. The crew that is doing the other slope said they have done some steps where they mix in a little cement with the decomposed granite and it stays in place. Maybe that might be an option. Any ideas on how to keep a ramp-like slope but not have it so slippery?

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Cristo Balete

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Susan, those are a couple of great looking walls. That one along your driveway? will be a pleasure just to watch the water run down it. That's interesting about the downspouts. Can you collect that runoff water and use it for landscape?

For non-slip surfaces, you could look into what they put around swimming pools, even those natural black bottom pools, it may not be sanded paint on cement. There could be other solutions that look more natural. And look into landscapes of retirement home complexes that are on hillsides. They will be designed by professionals and are built to code to accommodate people in wheelchairs and walking with walkers, so they will look good and be safe. All the slopes will be at an angle that is considered safe, etc.

The path on the slope coming down from your deck, you might make it into an S shape pathway that parallels the deck, then does a 180 turn, goes back parallel again to the deck, snakes its way down the hill, at distances to make planting beds between the paths that are reachable, maybe 4=5 feet or so. Then the path is not steep, the beds are reachable by both sides, and you can put plants or not. Since you've got some serious hillsides for possibly older people, when the time comes you could look into the types of wheelchairs that have fatter tires that are more stable "off road."

And if you do remodeling, and you want to accommodate a wheelchair, the doorways need to be widened. I forget if it's 36".

I can tell your dog is thrilled already.

Tyler Ludens

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I'm also really enjoying the pics of the stonework!

Idle dreamer

Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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Thank you. We absolutely love the rock walls. They were finished just as the rain really started here last fall and because we didn't know how well they would work we ran outside every time it rained. We were especially concerned about the gutter as the street asphalt was already washing away so we had to make sure the water stayed in the gutter. I would go out and move a rock here or there. It makes me very sad to see all that water go down to the storm drain but we are one stop for water coming down from two hilly streets above us so for that spot, I have to let the water go. I wanted to do some retention basins cut out on the way down but we are too concerned about jeopardizing the slope so no basins there.

In the front of the house we have redirected 3 downspouts. One up them goes to the upper rain garden. I think it collects too much water to hold up there so we will be directing the overflow from this one, down the side slope into a basin in the back yard. A LOT of pipe. We get a fair amount of fog and I can collect a few gallons of water overnight from fog through the one downspout. Once the new fence gets up, this upper raingarden will be filled with rocks and plants.

The other two downspouts in the front yard, on the side of the garage, are going to the rain garden at the end of the driveway. We cut into the pipe they had going out the edge of the slope, ran the pipe down the side of the driveway, and then dug a pit a few feet deep to capture the water there. It also helps catch the water sheeting across the driveway from the street above us.

I like the idea of an S shaped path coming down the slope. The crew who is doing the recycled cement wall are going to do some steps that are decomposed granite mixed with a little bit of cement. The pictures looked good so if I like it in person, maybe they can do the same sort of thing on the slope. I am coming to realize that I can't have every surface as peramable, even though that is my preference. Sometimes too much water will just wash away our many slopes.

We have so much correcting to do of the downspouts. There are three at the back of the house that are cut off to dump the water under the deck, right at the foundation. Sheesh! Before this winter we will run those three downspouts to the lower yard to various places.

I tried to add Youtube links. Not sure if they worked or not.

Upper rain garden (currently a pit)

goal.

Water at the terrace from last fall

Also a pic of the raingarden at the base of the driveway. Eventually all that cement driveway will go away and we will do pavers so more water can soak in up there. (and if I have won the lottery by then, we will do under the driveway water storage at that time.)

And yes, on the inside we are working with a contractor (we just don't have those skills) to help us make the house safe for us now and as we age.

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Cristo Balete

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I can see where you want to control that runoff. Are you thinking of one of those fake streams lined with rounded river rocks? Those look good the whole year, yet slow down any rushing runoff rainfall.

I wouldn't worry about the gophers too much, since their tunnels are aerating the soil. They are part of the ecology of it all. If you are going to plant fruit trees or plants you want to protect from them on that slope, I've had good luck surrounding the plant with daffodil bulbs (poisonous) and they leave things alone, and the daffodils are a bright spot of yellow in an otherwise gray spring. I also use daffodil bulbs to mark asparagus plants so I don't look track of where they are.

It's admirable you want a more permeable driveway, but actually, water under where your car goes is not such a good idea. The driveway isn't that big, and it's already slanted to drain well, so you could catch the runoff from the cement in rock-lined channels that can then be directed. They have great cement stains that would make it look quite natural. If you are contemplating wheelchair use, you'll need that solid surface outside a car for stability and ease of rolling of a wheelchair. Pavers eventually get weeds, sometimes slippery algae and moss that is very slippery and requires spray That's not an organic way to go.

You are going to have a lot of fun with that back yard!

Cristo Balete

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This is what I am going to get if I win the lottery:

http://www.inclinedelevation.com/content/products/

Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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Love those lifts, Christo! We have been talking about something similar down the road. That is probably a much more likely happening than putting rain tanks under the driveway. I can't find the examples I had of it but there is a company that designs water blocks that can handle the weight of the cars. But it is unlikely we would ever do that. What we will do is put in a french drain up at the top, by the garage door, when we put in the new driveway. Right now it dips down in front of the door and water goes into the garage. Not a good idea.

We will likely do pavers. We had them at the last house and loved them. If you don't seal them they stay rougher and I wouldn't seal them because then they are no longer peramable.

The driveway holds 8+ cars so we have a lot of water sheeting down it. It would be nice to have some of it soaking in higher up and then, much easier to fix if needed, after an earthquake.

We did one of those fake creekbed streams at the old house.
Dry creek bed that collected down spout water from our old house.

So yes, similar dry creek bed for overflow up top in the front yard. Bigger something in the back. Had the guy with the heavy machinery here today to move all the cement in the backyard closer to where the next retaining wall needs to go. Now that I am looking at the bare dirt I can totally see the pieces of the water retention project falling into place. I got too hot and dehydrated to trust myself to draw it out today so I will have to have him come back in a few days. But it was nice to see that it looks like it will work to hold water in the ground and have a water feature and a wetlands.

The yard is full of all the brush and I am overwhelmed looking at it, knowing how slow I am at breaking it down. I think I need to go buy a new Sawzall and a few blades. I'm too chicken to use a chainsaw.

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Susan Taylor Brown

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Location: Scotts Valley, California Zone 9B

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oh and the gophers, them varmints are worthy of my worry. The front slope has so many holes that it is a danger to walk. The backyard is getting to be as bad. I worry about myself falling or the dog getting hurt since she tends to run like a demon and doesn't pay any attention to what she is running through or over.

Susan Taylor Brown

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And so it begins. The recycled cement retaining wall is going up. They got about 9 feet of wall up on Saturday (while also marking out the spots for the new fence posts and digging into the slope.) They will be back next Saturday to continue. So far it is exceeding my expectations.

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