Moving dirt: Portable Electric Conveyor instead of diesel?

So I've just watched a few videos of the berm shed, and listened to a podcast (or three) on the topic and one of the topics was getting the dirt onto the berm shed.  Like, its hard (location at Wheaton Labs - who put a pole building next to the berm shed!? didn't make it easy) because you need to lift lift lift that dirt up high and then you need to spread it ...  Sounds like it was a lot of diesel and manual labor.

Light Bulb moment!  I saw one of these at my local rental yard and I was thinking about using it to help with a pond excavation.  Behold:

https://www.redlinesystems.com/Products/rm-series/

or if you prefer video:


These are electric (run off a voltswagen? solar leviathan?) and some are made for outdoor construction sites.  My local rental yard has smaller ones that are meant to remove dirt from basements, and will merrily run on household electricity or off a small generator.  And you can connect them to get all Rube Goldberg (Boot Challenge!  Design a machine using converyor belts that ends by putting a piece of pie on Paul's table!).  In any case, it should be relatively simple to place it to move dirt atop a berm or Wofati, and then use the excavator or loader to dump material into a feed hopper and up it goes!

I've had a conveyor truck deliver gravel several times.  Instead of just dumping gravel, a highly adjustable conveyor launches the gravel.  By adjusting the angle and speed of the conveyor they can easily launch gravel OVER a single story house.  I'm not sure if any of these smaller ones are so capable, but wow, it sure would make it easy to spread the dirt if you could just adjust the speed and launch the dirt!

So ... did the existence of these things just elude everyone?  Were they too expensive, too fiddly?  Is there something else I'm not getting about these?

I like your idea Elliot.....

....I'm thinking the conveyor belt needs to be able to swing in a 180 degree arc (or atleast a 90) so maybe put a wheel on the delivery end of the conveyor and side handles on both left and right sides to pull/push the delivery end across the roof top.

...this means the end where the dirt is loaded needs to be pin hinged.

....it would be nice to be able to easily move the conveyor forward and backward while running (that or a extendable trough on the delivery end which can move forward and backwards by hand.

This seems like a really neat solution for some situations.. moving material from a barn to a compost area could be very well suited.

If you're moving material a fair ways, though, it seems like it might get cost prohibitive pretty quickly? And, if you wish to spread the material, a vehicle can place a bunch of loads near each other, without any reconstruction of the conveyer setup to change the aim...

I moved some spoil from pond construction last summer in the loader bucket. It was heavy, lots of clay.. a level bucket was all the 50HP tractor was up for, maybe 1800lbs judging by tire squish. Perhaps 2/3rds of a yard.

Some is destined for spreading around the field, but the more clayey and graveley portions are going to build up roadways and berms.

Wow is that ever a slow process.. it doesn't take much of a pond to generate a massive pile of spoil. I'd love a conveyer truck to help, but in reality will probably buy an elderly dumptruck and cross my fingers...

Orin Raichart wrote:

....I'm thinking the conveyor belt needs to be able to swing in a 180 degree arc (or atleast a 90) so maybe put a wheel on the delivery end of the conveyor and side handles on both left and right sides to pull/push the delivery end across the roof top.

...this means the end where the dirt is loaded needs to be pin hinged.

....it would be nice to be able to easily move the conveyor forward and backward while running (that or a extendable trough on the delivery end which can move forward and backwards by hand.

Yep.  I'm no expert on these things, but some are mounted on a trailer, launching AWAY from the hitch.  So using an attached vehicle or a manual dolly you could move it around in 2 axes.  Of course, that requires a nicely prepared site.

D Nikolls wrote:

If you're moving material a fair ways, though, it seems like it might get cost prohibitive pretty quickly? And, if you wish to spread the material, a vehicle can place a bunch of loads near each other, without any reconstruction of the conveyer setup to change the aim...

Oh yeah, its easy to dig and grab dirt.  Moving it is awful.  Its slow, and largely because for every loader bucket you have at least 2x that weight of tractor that also needs to move.

These are, like any tool, appropriate for certain jobs.  My yard rents the conveyors for $75 day/ $300 week.  In purely economic terms, that's a lot of diesel.  But if I have a pile HERE and I want it THERE - especially if THERE is a place the loader doesn't easily get to - then it might make a lot of sense.  But having four of them connected to lift the pond scrapings out of the creek basin?  I'm not sure about that.

Watching the berm shed video I saw big piles of dirt around the site, just waiting to be scooped.  As the roof height exceeds the lift height of Paul's tractor, a dirt ramp was built.  Instead of that time (and diesel) building and removing ramps something like this might have been helpful.

Eliot,

This is a really great idea.  I would imagine that the conveyor would be a much more efficient way to move dirt than tractor bucket.

I am trying to think about negatives, and all I can come up with is would this be a one time application or do you have other plans for the conveyor?

My only concern is that this would work great for your berm application, but afterwards become a lawn ornament.

It is early and I have not had my coffee yet so maybe you addressed this already.

But really, nice idea.

Eric

I'm pretty sure that the old hay-bale elevators I knew as a kid were powered off a PTO on the tractor.  

Does the electric tractor have a PTO? Could an old bale elevator be found and adapted if necessary?

Eliot, Burra, everyone,

I am certain the hay bale conveyors described by Burra could be modified to run on electricity.  I would have one practical problem using a tractor PTO to run just about any stationary power equipment—that being that it is not available to do anything else.

In this particular example, a tractor might be ideal for loading soil for earthworks.  But if it is powering the conveyor, it simply cannot move earth at the same time (I have the same issue with PTO powered woodchippers).

But I can think of at least two ways to convert this to electrical.  The first option would be to work in some directly attaching electrical motor(s).  The second one involves hydraulics.  Lots of these stationary applications are powered by tractor hydraulics instead of the PTO shaft which makes placement of the tractor easier.  If one could rig up an electrically powered hydraulic pump, then matching it up to a hydraulic conveyor would be a simple affair.

One issue regarding electricity in this particular application.  Assuming one plans to use PV solar and a battery setup, one will likely need a LOT of solar panels and batteries.  I imagine that hauling what is probably several tons of earth up even a slight incline (say 7’ high—about what is needed for a 5’ berm) will require a lot of Kw hours.  I am not saying that it cannot be done, only that the power requirements are not trivial.

I would need to do some basic calculations (and I don’t like math!), but first I would need some specifics such as how tall the berm is to be, how long it is (basically a total volume of earth), some idea of the type of earth being moved (for density purposes in order to get an idea of the mass we are talking about and the height needed to raise it.  From this we should be able to convert this to Kw hours which will determine our electrical capacity.

One other point to mention, if you plan to use a conveyor (a great idea!), you might well want a hopper feeder as well.  A conveyor will certainly move, raise and dump a lot of earth very efficiently, but loading that earth onto the conveyor is not as simple as rolling up and dumping it.  Conveyors love a smooth, steady operation and dumping puts sudden, abrupt power demands into play.  Also, it will be challenging to roll up and dump a load of earth and have all/most of it stay on the conveyor unless dumped very slow and carefully or having a very wide belt.  A hopper feeder lets you roll up and dump without inducing surges or missing the conveyor altogether.

Eliot, I think this is a great idea, I am just trying to outline some of the challenges involved.

Best of luck and please, let us know what you think.

Eric

I think this idea has potential to do some very specific things much better than a large piece of diesel-powered equipment. In my opinion, these would include putting dirt in specific places for specific applications, where larger machines won't easily fit.

The initial application for many of these, as mentioned, is for the excavation of small spaces where an excavator won't fit, like in a basement. The digging would already be done, of necessity, by hand or with powered hand-tools, certainly nothing larger than a jackhammer, and the alternative to the conveyor would be buckets hauled upstairs by hand.

It really isn't much of a stretch to imagine one of these being loaded from the bottom, to have material piled evenly atop a wofati. With a chute at the end that pivots side-to-side a full 180 degrees, it would also be useful to fill the sort of standard or insulated forms used for concrete, but that can easily be repurposed for the making of rammed earth. In fact, I think that this would be the best possible way to fill rammed-earth forms.

First, a large, rotating mixer would be loaded, probably using the same conveyor, with the proper ratio of sand, clay, fill, and possibly a small amount of portland cement for stabilisation. That would mix while the conveyor was repositioned for the section of wall to be filled next. When mixed, the conveyor would spread the material into the forms, where a tamper would periodically run over the contents, packing it into solid walls. Rinse and repeat until it's time to put on the roof and top with a wofati-style soil umbrella and a perennial green roof.

There is a lot to be said for electric over diesel, but we are only just developing the infrastructure needed to make it feasible for electric power to replace it. A homestead or farm with many charging sheds spread all over the property, for instance, where either a set of batteries designed to be swapped out on-the-go could always be charging, would have a much easier time using electric power over diesel. If there's no infrastructure, and no voltswagon or solar behemoth, and if we're talking about somewhere no-doubts-about-it rural, where the only things not running diesel are running gasoline, and everyone is using their well-maintained grandfather's workhorse of a tractor, because nobody's sees the need to go into debt for John Deere's latest, it still might end up being the best idea. It may just have to wait in some places.

But I love the initial idea. I think that, especially over some terrain, and in some tight spots where you might be forced to work by hand or with a small scoop, that an electric conveyor might be the best work-around to save backs, and to save larger equipment from getting bogged down in terrain to which it may be ill-suited.

One parting thought just struck me (ouch): I know that one of the benefits of accessories with their own on-board electrical motors involves the doing away with much of the mechanisms that raise or lower the RPMs of the PTO, but I wonder if anyone is making something like an electric tractor with an electric PTO to work with all the conventional machinery. I mean, if you had, as was just mentioned, an old hay conveyor, all you need is the power.

-CK

BTW,

I just ran some numbers and it will take 2000 watts (2 Kw) to raise one metric ton two meters.

Just using this for a reference point.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:
I am trying to think about negatives, and all I can come up with is would this be a one time application or do you have other plans for the conveyor?

....
My only concern is that this would work great for your berm application, but afterwards become a lawn ornament.

I'm often amazed at how difficult it is to make coffee when I haven't yet had coffee.  Is there some coffee equivalent of an event horizon after which we all get sucked into non-productivity?

So yeah - NOT a permanent piece of equipment of the farm, or at last I'd not imagine at Wheaton Labs.  I see this as a rental item.

Chris Kott wrote:
One parting thought just struck me (ouch): I know that one of the benefits of accessories with their own on-board electrical motors involves the doing away with much of the mechanisms that raise or lower the RPMs of the PTO, but I wonder if anyone is making something like an electric tractor with an electric PTO to work with all the conventional machinery. I mean, if you had, as was just mentioned, an old hay conveyor, all you need is the power.
-CK

Hat tip to Burra for the hay conveyor idea.  I see those all the time in the $200-400 range - just need some sort of belt or bucket attachment.

In the 1970s General Electric made the Elec-Trak (Elec-Trac? can never remember if it was Chris or Kris in marketing that day...) - an electric lawnmower with a beefy set of deep cycle batteries.  There was a whole line up of DC powered tools that you could plug straight in... including a chain saw!  Just unplug the mower deck (yep, electric! a motor for each blade) and plug in whatever tool you had.  Sadly I don't think anyone at GE considered the need for a DC powered blender/margarita maker.

There was also an AC adapter too.

Eric Hanson wrote:BTW,

I just ran some numbers and it will take 2000 watts (2 Kw) to raise one metric ton two meters.

The little one I could rent runs on 110v, so it probably maxes at 1800w (~13 amps).  Actual consumption must depend on loading and angle (aka "work"), but 1800w is within the range of good inverters. How long could it run? I don't feel like searching for Solar Leviathan specs, maybe someone with the knows could chime in?

Alternately, my quick search for media links revealed that some of these units can have direct drive gas motors.  Ok, maybe not the ideal but a small gas motor + conveyor is still more efficient than a lumbering tractor (in certain conditions).

Chris, Eric, Burra:

Good thoughts on options, additional uses and power sources.  

My initial reaction was to building the berm-shed, and there is electricity there in the shop so the power source is a no-brainer.  Moving away from the grid certainly presents a challenge and there could be multiple power options.  After all we're talking about one of the simplest and most common application of power.  I'd think Wheaton Labs would prefer to use existing electric infrastructure (and save the tractor for loading duties), but I happen to have three possible PTO sources and a bunch of hearing protection so a diesel-PTO might actually be a good solution for me.  Have to think on that...

Continuing the hay bale lifter ... all that I've seen are alectric, but it makes sense that there would be PTO driven ones as well.  The problem I see is that these always seem to be just a conveyor system that is dependent on being supported by barn structures.  Once outside the conveyor would need some sort of frame to lift it up.  Not an insurmountable problem, but not a simple task either.

Nice! One other advantage to electric infrastructure is what has ICE and small engine mechanics concerned, the relative lack of maintenance required for electric vehicles and tools. I mean, you need to keep them clean, and sometimes they need to be designed so that the electrical components can stay clean while the rest of the machine gets dirty, and you need to sharpen and replace parts that are prone to wear, but from what I have heard from mechanics on the subject, there's very little to be done on, for instance, modern electric vehicles that isn't a straight swap-out for fresh parts, motors and batteries and such.

I would love to see more development in this sphere. Imagine, for a moment, an electric traction device that was essentially a giant self-stabilised wheel, a rolling hub-motor in a tractor tire or track with onboard swappable battery banks, onto which purpose-built, self-motored accessories attached. For longer, slow-moving processes, a battery-bank trailer with solar panels could be towed. And imagine this piece of equipment being designed to drive down between planted rows, perhaps sewing a hardy green manure polyculture in its wake, a suitable platform for a person or automated equivalent to mulch or seed or apply compost extracts or fungal slurry during another crop's growth, where conventional equipment wouldn't be an option.

I could imagine such stripped-down electric traction devices being cheaper, such that multiples could live on one property, so that if one was tied up subbing for a PTO, another could do the locomotor duty. Imagine you could buy them in singles or multiples, with a quantity discount, and the advantages of designed for disassembly and repair ethic.

I went a tad afield, but yes, I see great potential advantages to an electric infrastructure for homesteading over diesel, but I don't know that we are developed in that thread enough to be able to support such a conversion completely.

Soon, though.

-CK

And then there's this...

Hmm... Wheaton Labs doesn't have horses.  But they have people...

Honestly, I think that if you wanted to convert a whole lot of human power directly to rotary action, like on a shared axle powering a PTO-driven machine, the best way would be to salvage as many decent elliptical machines as possible, or else the type of rowing machines that use the resistance of a large fan wheel. I would gear them all so that they'd coast until any amount of physical effort were applied.

We have so many useful devices around designed specifically to tax the human engine in specific, measured ways, in one place. It seems to me the best way to use human power in this way would be off of an excercise machine that used a whole-body workout to spin an axle.

-CK

Wow.  We have gotten way off topic!

Yes - but in defense of Roman technology there could be a SKIP badge to build a round-wood human-powered rotary power source.  Comes right after junk-pole fencing.

Eliot Mason wrote:

......I'm often amazed at how difficult it is to make coffee when I haven't yet had coffee.  Is there some coffee equivalent of an event horizon after which we all get sucked into non-productivity?

yes but it remains in the all elusive "elsewhere"

Eliot Mason wrote:
......Comes right after junk-pole fencing.

on an x-y axis, is that an exponential learning curve???

Hmm... true, that might be a bit accelerated.  Maybe instead of building the wheel they could be put in it to experience it, and in Wheaton Labs style, come up with experimental wheel designs.  Yes, they would get to reinvent the wheel!