the solutions are embarrassingly simple

major contributors to simple solutions which you might not know.

Adam Sachs, Bio4Climate.
Didi Pershouse, Ecology of Care. . . see previous post
Narsanna Koppula, Aranya Agriculture Alternatives
Rajendra Singh, 10 rivers back in life in Rajistan, India.  
Brad Lancaster for his work in the Tucson desert with 11 inches of rainfall
Gabe Brown
Christine Jones, soil biology australia
Walter Jehne, microbiology as applied to the rain cycle, australia
Neal Spackman, dryland restoration in Saudi Arabia, facebookn
Matt powers, the permaculture student
Subhash Palikar, 18 books about zero budget natural farming
Bhaskar Save, ghandi of natural farming in india subject of book by bharat mansata
John D. Liu, Ecosystem Restoration Camps
Vail Dixon,(female), Simple Soil Solutions,  gardener in toby's ecosystem tradition on more than 2000 acres in virginia, mentor of gardeners.

Rufaro Makamure wrote:Why would you even be bothered  

It is against reddit rules for me to post links to my own stuff (techically, a bit more complicated than that) so I wait to see my stuff posted to reddit by you all.  

Four months since last post to permies:
https://www.reddit.com/domain/permies.com/

three months since the last post to richsoil
https://www.reddit.com/domain/richsoil.com/

But, it doesn't really need to be MY stuff....

And when something on reddit came up about being good for the environment, there was no mention of rocket mass heaters, lots of mention of LEDs but nothing about how incandescent is better in cold climates.  All of the things that I've been putting out there for years didn't seem to make an appearance.  

I got there early (which is important on reddit).  I got zero upvotes, while weak stuff got hundreds of upvotes.  

The conclusion I am drawing, is that I project information, that information is consumed, and then people sit on it and do nothing more.  

All I seem to read everywhere is  

dooooooom, dooooooom,  we're all going to die ....  it's over .... there is nothing we can do but wait for death while eating ice cream ....   doooooooom .... we  could buy LED light bulbs .... but that's not enough so we're all gonna dieeeeeeeeeeeeeee .....   die, die, die, doooooooooooooom.    Maybe we should change religions .... or eat a different flavor  of ice cream .....   we should all watch this video about how we're all gonna die .....   doooooooooooom .....   somebody should do something so we don't all dieeeeeeeeee .... dooooooooom ....   isn't there anybody?  anybody at all?   what are the solutions?  There are no solutions!  Let's all go complain so that somebody will do something ....  

My response to all that is

the solutions are simple

And then I lay it out.  But because it doesn't get upvoted, it goes nowhere.   I look for simple solutions to upvote and manage to upvote about 20 lame things.  

where the fuck are my peeps?

By the rules of reddit I am not allowed to direct you to my reddit posts.  But surely there will be a few hundred of you looking at that, right?

A quick mention and a few upvotes at just the right time on reddit can change everything.  Can change the world.  Can get this information onto a HUGE stage ...  

That reddit "thread" was viewed by about 4 million people.  The most upvoted thing there had something like 600 upvotes.  This thread has had over 12,000 views.  

I suspect that about 300 people reading this thread saw that reddit "thread" and didn't contribute, upvote or downvote.  

Why?

So the purpose of this thread is two-fold:

1: to make it clear that people should NOT count on me to cruise all of the internet and chime in on all things to clear things up.  Stop asking me to go to 400 different web sites and answer thousands of questions about thousands of topics.  Do it yourself.  Stop making suggestions about what I should do, when you can do anything that you would suggest that I do.  I don't know how to contact ANY celebrities, so stop suggesting that I contact them.

2: to encrourage those 300 people to mention something and do some upvoting and downvoting.  45 seconds a day from 300 people can make a massive difference.

How about starting a thread where people can share their stories of how they found permies or got started on permaculture concepts? Then you can tap into whatever those resources are, since they must have worked.


The problem is, Gerts are not interested in spreading ideas. They're interested in doing.
Ferds are interested. But not willing to go out of their set convenient lives.


The ideas? Sure it's easy to put the ideas out. The problem is that most people don't have enough passion for the topic to launch into level 5 ideas. No matter how much you try, you won't convince somebody to change their lives with such complicated things. Only if they're appealed to on some selfish or emotional level, will they bother getting up and going the extra mile.

People get interested in something because it starts from somewhere else. For me bushcrafting led to prepping, which let to survivalism, and later resulted in homesteading. It often requires a long series of events, or at least one serious one, for a single person to finally find something(permaculture).

Most might have the random notion to do a couple of things here and there(level 1) to help the environment, and to give them some peace of mind, they may do a couple of those things. But eliminate soap and shampoo? You gotta revamp entire social and cultural norms for that, or just be satisfied with the people you get who don't care about those things. And the former is gonna take more than 12 years.


What you need is an army of social media butterflies. Not a bunch of gardeners. The life of an avid permaculturalist isn't very well connected to being a popular social media butterfly who can promote those ideas all over the internet.
They're too busy living the(permie) life on top of their(personal life) to live an (online) life, unless it all is their passion, like it is for you.

Maybe you could collect a group of permies to do this? Post a hint about hugelkulture on a youtube video here. Answer a chicken question on one forum there. Repin something on pinterest. Help someone with heating their house on another forum. Etc...  

I guess I'll go sign up for an account on reddit now.

Guerric Kendall wrote:How about starting a thread where people can share their stories of how they found permies or got started on permaculture concepts? Then you can tap into whatever those resources are, since they must have worked.

Sounds like a good idea.  
Let us know when you have started it.  

R Ranson wrote:

Guerric Kendall wrote:How about starting a thread where people can share their stories of how they found permies or got started on permaculture concepts? Then you can tap into whatever those resources are, since they must have worked.

Sounds like a good idea.  
Let us know when you have started it.  

Something like that? How did you find out about permies.com

Here's another super simple solution.  Jason posted this thread that deserves some views:Ecosystem Restoration Camps

Here's the youtube link from the Ecosystem Restoration Cooperative Camps by John Liu:  

I get the feeling these 'maybe you should's need to change into either 'let's do X together' or 'I'm doing X, any ideas for moving forward?'

Aaand then I see people doing just that in posts after the one that inspired this one. Very cool.

I have only the most basic computer skills. What little I know, I have learned on my own. I also have a very poor internet connection. Went to Reddit this morning, but after 10 minutes it still hadn't loaded, so I quit. (Foggy here today.)

Only recently have I joined the Reddit site. I did so after reading a really old thread here where people were saying that someone they knew had posted a video there that needed some upvotes. (Didn't know what an upvote was - but had an educated guess.👍)

While over there, I saw a few things that looked connected to this site and upvote several cool things. Being older stuff, did my actions help? Dunno.

Now, with Paul's recent post here... I don't know what you are or aren't allow to do by Reddit rules. No clue. I do know that I don't read between the lines very well and subtle hints don't seem to light up that incandescent lightbulb above my head. I (and maybe many others) feel a bit like Brenda Groth as she posted
here.

This video Jocelyn posted called What is Reddit was helpful.

I also found this thread to be somewhat helpful
How to Navigate Reddit.
I appreciate the links you (Paul) have included in your recent post. Thanks.

I, with my limited skills, feel mildly confident posting to the Permies site now. It did take a long time for me to actually participate, rather than just read. There were several people here who helped me learn to navigate this site. I spend a good bit of my online time here. I might not know as much as I should but it's a wonderful site with kind, like-minded people. In order to do the most good for this site and the earth, we do need to break away occasionally from this safe huddle and venture out into the world (real or virtual) and share what we have learned with others. PERMIES FAN OUT!

My efforts lately to connect to the Ad Council have not yet produced a response. I've emailed them twice so far. I also feel awkward trying to promote someone else's IP. What if I miss represent in some way? What if I don't do/say something the way Paul (or some other steward) would have? I just try and hope for the best. I feel very inadequate and out of my comfort zone.  I do feel Reducing One's Carbon Footprint (that's what I have proposed to them) would make a great ad. And a link to this site for more information could increase traffic here.

This was but one attempt at one idea. I can do more. I may not know how to post on Reddit quite yet but upvoting the content already there is easy. We can all do that much. I am one of "300 people". Are you going to join me?

(PS: If you are reading this and are the one trashing Paul Wheaton over at Reddit - get a life dude.)

Karen Donnachaidh wrote:I have only the most basic computer skills. What little I know, I have learned on my own. I also have a very poor internet connection. Went to Reddit this morning, but after 10 minutes it still hadn't loaded, so I quit. (Foggy here today.)

Only recently have I joined the Reddit site. I did so after reading a really old thread here where people were saying that someone they knew had posted a video there that needed some upvotes. (Didn't know what an upvote was - but had an educated guess.👍)

While over there, I saw a few things that looked connected to this site and upvote several cool things. Being older stuff, did my actions help? Dunno.

Now, with Paul's recent post here... I don't know what you are or aren't allow to do by Reddit rules. No clue. I do know that I don't read between the lines very well and subtle hints don't seem to light up that incandescent lightbulb above my head. I (and maybe many others) feel a bit like Brenda Groth as she posted
here.

This video Jocelyn posted called What is Reddit was helpful.

I also found this thread to be somewhat helpful
How to Navigate Reddit.
I appreciate the links you (Paul) have included in your recent post. Thanks.

I, with my limited skills, feel mildly confident posting to the Permies site now. It did take a long time for me to actually participate, rather than just read. There were several people here who helped me learn to navigate this site. I spend a good bit of my online time here. I might not know as much as I should but it's a wonderful site with kind, like-minded people. In order to do the most good for this site and the earth, we do need to break away occasionally from this safe huddle and venture out into the world (real or virtual) and share what we have learned with others. PERMIES FAN OUT!

My efforts lately to connect to the Ad Council have not yet produced a response. I've emailed them twice so far. I also feel awkward trying to promote someone else's IP. What if I miss represent in some way? What if I don't do/say something the way Paul (or some other steward) would have? I just try and hope for the best. I feel very inadequate and out of my comfort zone.  I do feel Reducing One's Carbon Footprint (that's what I have proposed to them) would make a great ad. And a link to this site for more information could increase traffic here.

This was but one attempt at one idea. I can do more. I may not know how to post on Reddit quite yet but upvoting the content already there is easy. We can all do that much. I am one of "300 people". Are you going to join me?

(PS: If you are reading this and are the one trashing Paul Wheaton over at Reddit - get a life dude.)

Yup, I'll join the 300. Reddit account verified and comment upvoted. I'm still exploring more though.

could i please get a little youtube love on my post.  Please upvote and comment:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQLbakWESkw&lc=z13lsjnqhprvjdajo04cdbkygluxydyokjg

Luv,luv,luv! Need a break from Reddit about now. Been over there getting frustrated!

Edit: I am having major technical issues with both Reddit and YouTube!!!

If I try to explain most permaculture principles to my own family, they shake their heads and laugh about Todd with his crazy ideas.  I've long ago given up trying to explain most anything I do to anyone.  Let's face it, most people are simply not willing put forth any more effort than it takes to buy a different kind of light bulb.  Make a giant pile of rotting wood in your yard and cover it with dirt to grow plants?  How about I just plant things, water them 3 times a week and put some fertilizer on?  Spend the time and effort it takes to figure out how to build a rocket mass heater, buy the supplies, spend hours making adobe, split or gather wood, hope I got it right so that my house doesn't fill up with smoke, hope I don't ever have to sell the house with the "no way in hell it passes" heating system, and learn to live with a giant barrel in the middle of my living room?  How about I walk over and turn the thermostat up instead?  Prepare my soil, bring in organic matter, build my soil web, and try to nurture my plants, save my seeds, possibly start my own landrace?  How about I buy a fifty pound bag of potatoes for $6?

People who do this, myself included, have to do it because they love it.  "The masses" are never going to switch to a permaculture lifestyle unless they are forced to by some catastrophe that makes the permaculture lifestyle easier than the current mode of operation.  I am very grateful to Paul, Geoff Lawton, etc. because without them, I would never have found this path.  If people continue to put the information out there, other people like me that are ready will find it.  I don't think it will happen quickly, but I personally am not trying to change the world.  I'm just trying to make my little piece of it better.  

Tyler Ludens wrote:I advise against trying to make a TV show or feature film.  This is a recipe for heartbreak even if you are friends with people in show biz.  (I work in show biz)  

I work in the entertainment industry and can attest that this is absolutely a recipe for heartbreak.  If you're even able to pull it off, get funding, get a film shot, odds are, it will die on a shelf, or get distributed by a company that will then RIP YOU OFF and you'll see NOTHING.  

How anyone can make independent films is beyond me.  The entire system is rigged so the film makers are screwed, and distributors and sales agents make money...

Youtube comment upvoted. √

Todd Parr wrote:If I try to explain most permaculture principles to my own family, they shake their heads and laugh about Todd with his crazy ideas.  I've long ago given up trying to explain most anything I do to anyone.  Let's face it, most people are simply not willing put forth any more effort than it takes to buy a different kind of light bulb.  Make a giant pile of rotting wood in your yard and cover it with dirt to grow plants?  How about I just plant things, water them 3 times a week and put some fertilizer on?  Spend the time and effort it takes to figure out how to build a rocket mass heater, buy the supplies, spend hours making adobe, split or gather wood, hope I got it right so that my house doesn't fill up with smoke, hope I don't ever have to sell the house with the "no way in hell it passes" heating system, and learn to live with a giant barrel in the middle of my living room?  How about I walk over and turn the thermostat up instead?  Prepare my soil, bring in organic matter, build my soil web, and try to nurture my plants, save my seeds, possibly start my own landrace?  How about I buy a fifty pound bag of potatoes for $6?

People who do this, myself included, have to do it because they love it.  "The masses" are never going to switch to a permaculture lifestyle unless they are forced to by some catastrophe that makes the permaculture lifestyle easier than the current mode of operation.  I am very grateful to Paul, Geoff Lawton, etc. because without them, I would never have found this path.  If people continue to put the information out there, other people like me that are ready will find it.  I don't think it will happen quickly, but I personally am not trying to change the world.  I'm just trying to make my little piece of it better.  

This. This needed to be said. I tried to say a similar thing in my post, but deleted it since it wasn't coming out right. Even in the farming/homesteading community, it's incredibly hard to promote permaculture. I've tried giving permie-style answers to questions on the other forums I'm on, and the response is pretty much the same. Very few care unless there is a significant, tangible benefit to the person doing it. And even then, most people take the path of convenience, or bow to social/cultural norms.

Especially when it comes to gardening. Mostly only newbies will change things up. Otherwise, you'll find them to be incredibly protective of their water 3x a week and add fertilizer style. And they are the people closest to the permaculture lifestyle. So random people on the web? ....Nope.... So I completely agree. Permaculture is a labor of love. Not something you can convert the masses to.

Honestly, I feel like innovation is better than promotion, but then I remember the overwhelming amount I still don't know after years of research and yup, re-covering old information is maybe better.


I'm willing to be there and help if Paul wants to try anything. Who knows. If anyone can find a way, he can. But I do agree.

One common thread I see in many of the posts here are people's understandable "desire" to educate the masses, and change how people think.

A lofty, but unrealistic goal, because of basic human nature.  Some people will "get it".  Others never will, and the powers that be won't, because they are motivated by money, with little concern for the future ramifications of their actions.  You're fighting forces like greed, apathy, etc.  

We humans are damned by our own nature.  The biggest problem our planet faces is the one NOBODY wants to talk about... human overpopulation.  

Where is it headed?  IMHO, for a MASSIVE crash... where a large chunk of the human race, 80-90% or even more, simply dies off very quickly.  Sadly, that may be the best course FOR the planet...

Those who live in populated areas, cities, etc, and or those who depend on things like, electricity, gas, running water, etc, are doomed.  Those who are in rural areas, who can function with the basics, and who have practical skills, will survive.  There is a theory that this type of thing has happened at least a half a dozen times over the last 20,000 years.

I've chosen to accept that this is humanity's fate... and in the grand scheme of things, it's ok.  I'll do my part, but I won't ruin my own happiness because people are too stupid and selfish to care.  I've seen too many good people get depressed (understandably) about the state of the world, and of humanity in general.

Be safe, and be well.  

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Using the name 'Permacultuur' (the Dutch way of writing permaculture), according to me, is important. It is a good start of conversations: 'what is permaculture?'

I agree the word permaculture needs to and will be used.  But if the goal is to get people interested in Permaculture that don't know about it already it can be a difficult introduction.  I think that is why many people use different terminology like regenerative agriculture or beyond organic to reach new people or discribe what they do.  The word Permaculture in itself is daunting to describe to someone who doesn't know.

That is my resoning to save the word permaculture for after gaining someone's interest in the benefits first.  

Richard Gorny wrote: But plenty of Ferds that are dreaming about becoming Gerts. They discuss permaculture on Facebook, read articles, attend workshops and lectures, but when it is over they go back to their "Ferdiness", sighing deeply. So far I haven't found any way to convince them to act. They do have a knowledge, but it remains not used.

These people who "love nature", "hate corporations", still spray, spray, spray Roundup.

But I'm not giving up, over four thousand people have read my blog post about beer can solar heater, so maybe one day someone else will actually build one .... I deeply believe that the way to go is to lead by example, starting from ourselves, then extending on our families and friends, neighbors and passerby's, local communities. When people see fruits of our work, they will more likely try to replicate that.
That's also why we should always take "before" and "after" shots of everything we do, starting from lawn transformations, ending with electrical bills before and after rocket stove install. We need to be able to backup our advices of permaculture solutions with hard data showing benefits, measured in units that are significant to Ferds, like in dollars saved/made perhaps? Maybe that will give them enough motivation to actually act.

Hi Richard, please post a link to that article!  I agree documenting evidence is critical to proving Permaculture ideas work and are worth the effort.  We can only control our own actions, but trying to help spread the message and applications is important, dispite it feeling useless and ineffective at times.  Thank you for your contributions!

at the 14:00 minute mark
how to get the truth out
or "How to win permies and influence people"

Oh Lionel😂 I guess I'll have to put my Permaculture beating stick away and learn to listen, relate, and teach people without judging them for where they are at in life. Jklol

The art of pursuasion.  Just ask any married women, just make the man believe it's his idea😂

Steve Taylor wrote:That is my reasoning to save the word permaculture for after gaining someone's interest in the benefits first

This is from a different angle I guess. I take my Permaculture produce to the local Farmers markets and display it to the permies. I let them taste and smell the produce. They are interested in the benefits before we even start talking.

Steve Taylor wrote:the word permaculture needs to and will be used

I agree and have my farm name "Rooted In Permaculture" on a big sign behind our stand. That way the word is easily visible. Even if they don't talk to me about Permaculture at all, they still see the word and curiosity may get them to find out more (the seed has been planted).

Steve Taylor wrote:the goal is to get people interested in Permaculture

In my situation it seems like a great opportunity to engage people because they are seeing the end result, (the produce), while we chat about how it got there.

Steve Taylor wrote:many people use different terminology like regenerative agriculture or beyond organic

Some people do steer away from the actual word "Permaculture". Personally, I embrace it, flaunt it, preach it. I'd like to see it tagged somewhere. I think a few roadside billboards In a few big cities with just the word PERMACULTURE on them would go a looonnng way. But for me personally I actually use the words Beyond Organic and Beyond Sustainable on my banner for a few reasons.
  First,     It's true.  In my opinion, even the best "Organic" practices are not as good as Permaculture and "sustaining" isn't good enough. I want a continuously increasing healthy biodiversity.
  Second, I use those words because they "are" more recognizable by the uninformed masses(exactly your point) and that gets them interested in "how" is it beyond.......which leads the conversation back to Permaculture.
  Third, Having the word Organic on my banner attracts people who are interested in Organic produce. That's what I'm selling. It's just a different certification...

Paul:

It's all about the attitude. Just relax. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You're doing great work here. My attitude has always been that the work is its own reward. Just keep doing what you're doing, and lose the expectations. The work is real, the expectations are imaginary. Control what you can control, and the rest will take care of itself. Not a one of us in this world is entitled to the gratification we seek. We might attain it, or we might not. But if the work is its own reward, we will be rewarded if we continue to work. My $.02 worth.

It's easy to live in the permies world and feel like the solutions are simple, and wonder why hundreds of millions of people aren't doing them. The following is partially taken from my own reactions on learning about rocket mass heaters - although I don't own a house, so the point is moot for now.
  Let's imagine that Bill Nye or Oprah runs a special on rocket mass heaters.  Ferd hears about it, knows his gas furnace needs replacing, and is like "YES!  I'll spend the money I was saving for a new gas furnace on a rocket mass heater instead!!!"
   So he goes to google and types in "where can I buy a rocket mass heater?".  The result is a lot of hits for "rocket heater" which doesn't look like what he wants, and Zaug stoves, which is not accepting orders until their product gets EPA approved.  "Huh?  Bill was pushing something that hasn't been approved?  Well, you know the government, I guess it is still ok... but what do I do if I can't buy one?"  
   So he clicks on one of the articles and finds the answer - each one depends on where it is being installed, so they have to be custom built.  
   "Well, that sounds more expensive, but kind of makes sense.  So, who do I hire to build one?"  He types in 'contractors who build rocket mass heaters in xxxxx".  Still zilch.  He find Erica and Ernie, who have a phone consultation service, but that is it.
    "So I have to build this thing MYSELF?  A gas furnace sounds great! I'll buy some better light bulbs - at least they will screw into the sockets I already have."
 
For a society in which making mayonnaise, sewing a button back on, and fixing your own plumbing are not universal skills, something that is large and time consuming to build, is not standardized, and is potentially dangerous enough to void your fire insurance will not be considered a "simple" solution.  For people who are already in the DIY mindset, maybe.  But that is not most of the developed world.  So in order to actually infect hundreds of millions of brains, you are first going to have to change the attitude that building a stove is something you need to hire an expert to do safely (which, frankly, might have some truth in it), or you will have to have a network of experts ready to quickly and safely install them, preferably with prefab parts. Having Bill Nye run a special is not going convince Ferd to get one until there is the infrastructure in place to make it easy and not prohibitively expensive.

I guess this is saying that Paul has hit a wall in popularizing the technology he feels are the solutions - but getting more people to upvote his answers on Reddit probably won't get him over that wall.  It's going to have to be done either by making the whole process easy for the average urban/suburban house owner (basically a consumerist solution), or by changing some very deep seated assumptions in society.  I know there are many people doing stellar work in this area, but in order to see results in 10 years, I suspect you'd need serious money behind you - venture capital to not just develop the technology but to do the safety testing, get it approved by the EPA, get it to contractors across the country, advertise it, and subsidize it until it really took off.  I'm not saying this is the best way to enact change - it has serious potential pitfalls. Having it done from the ground up may be better in the long run - but its a long run!

There is also an enormous difference between "simple" and "easy".  A solution can be very simple, and not at all easy.  Most people don't care about simple, they want easy.

Todd Parr wrote:There is also an enormous difference between "simple" and "easy".  A solution can be very simple, and not at all easy.  Most people don't care about simple, they want easy.

Very true. Three years ago when I arrived to my winter cold cabin, all I was doing was turning power on and starting electric heaters (plus paying monthly bills). Now I have to prepare firewood year in advance, make sure it dries properly, chop it, stack it, carry it, start my Kuznietsov stove, feed it until it heats the room and its thermal mass. All simple (and for me very enjoyable) tasks, but some visitors say I'm crazy, since they would just use electric heaters ...

And that is a task that for some, you and I at least, is enjoyable.  Some things I just can't see becoming mainstream readily.  If you look at something like bucket toilets, the difference in ease of use is even greater.  First you have to buy or build some type of enclosure for the bucket, then gather and store a very large amount of material, both for cover in the bucket, and for cover in the compost pile outside.  You need to build some sort of enclosure for the outdoor compost pile.  You have to haul a bucket of your own waste to some location outside, empty and clean the bucket, bring in more cover material.  If you live in a climate like I do with frigid winters, hauling and cleaning the bucket can be an ordeal in the winter, especially assuming you don't want a big pile of human waste close to your house.  It is simply much more work, time, and effort than pushing the flush handle on your toilet.  I try to do as much as I can to live a permaculture lifestyle, and I will readily admit I abandon my bucket toilet in the winter.  Add in the social stigma, how many people are going to do all this, and try to educate guests on the way you are helping to save the planet by asking them to shit in a plastic bucket.  Lina nailed it with this "It's easy to live in the permies world and feel like the solutions are simple, and wonder why hundreds of millions of people aren't doing them."  Other permies may have no problem understanding your motivation, but the mainstream population?  A much harder sell I would think.

My own take on it, and I'm never going to be a Paul or Geoff, is to try to get people to start doing some small thing.  Even then, I only talk to friends and family about it.  I'll never have any significant impact and I realize that.  I'm very grateful for the people that are doing the hard work and putting the information out there but I'll never be the one to pick up the torch.

In response to the last line of Todd Parr's post above, "I'll never be the one to pick up the torch" - but Todd, you already have picked it up It's people doing the thing for themselves, not for the purpose of convincing others, that make doing a thing mainstream No need to feel as though doing it in your own life is somehow not doing enough.

Regarding Redditt - that's a swamp I stay out of.  Zero interest in putting myself out there for target practice by internet ninjas.

"The solutions are simple" - but convincing people of this - that can be incredibly difficult, because so many simply will not believe that the solutions are as simple as they may be.

I've been doing a lot of producing more and consuming less in the what-can-I-do-right-now-with-what-I-have-know,etc right-now.

I also have been thinking lots about the things Toby said about returning to the commons, anarchy,and the like(Read Sacred Economics, The More Beutiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible and The Breakdown of Nations)
It's seems clear that we won't make much impact until feeding the ecomony isn't the first answer for everything. Current dogma-people need jobs and you get them from a use it up as fast as you can and turn it into money economy(our country(colony) was set up to exploit the resources and make Europe richer-independace only changed who kept the profits)). People really need food, shelter, etc-and this crowd knows money isn't the only waqy to get those things. Perhaps if we returned to the commons......

Another point I've been struggling with, animal nature of human verses human spirit(if you will allow the terms)-I listened to a nun talk about talking with CEO's-the CEO's wanted a raise from 10 million to 11 million. She questioned them as to whether they were having a hard time making ends meet on 10 million. The answer was -We are very competitive. We like to win and money is how we keep score. HOW DO WE CHANGE THE DIFINITION OF WINNING. I really want to find ways to do that.

I just read about a pioneer woman in computer programming-her thoughts were-the most dangerous phrase, the phrase that kills of a lot of ideas is 'but we've always done it this way'-So Paul, I see no way to get things to change in the way you/we want them to without changing how we run things in the political and social realms.

"...O Asklepios, why are you weeping? He will seem like a foreigner in regard to his customs. Divine Egypt will suffer evils greater than these. Egypt, lover of God, and the dwelling place of the gods, school of religion, will become an example of impiousness. And in that day the world will not be marvelled at.... It has become neither a single thing nor a vision. But it is in danger of becoming a burden to all men. Therefore, it will be despised — the beautiful world of God, the incomparable work, the energy which possesses goodness, the many-formed vision, the abundance that does not envy, that is full of every vision. Darkness will be preferred to light and death will be preferred to life. No one will gaze into heaven. And the pious man will be counted as insane, and the impious man will be honoured as wise. The man who is afraid will be considered as strong. And the good man will be punished like a criminal. "  --Ancient text found within the Nag Hammadi Gnostic scrolls.  From Tobias Churton's "The Gnostics".

@Kaitin R: "We are very competitive. We like to win and money is how we keep score. "

That verbiage of "competitive" is an excellent cover in our current cultural climate for fear.  

"The man who is afraid will be considered strong."

Thus:  "Rockefeller was at one point the world's richest man and first ever American billionaire. Considering he was a billionaire in the early 1900's he is still considered as the richest person in modern history. When a reporter asked him, “How much money is enough?” He responded, “Just a little bit more.”..."

If you are always fearful, you will always need "just a little bit more" protection.

Kaiten Rivers wrote:
Another point I've been struggling with, animal nature of human verses human spirit(if you will allow the terms)-I listened to a nun talk about talking with CEO's-the CEO's wanted a raise from 10 million to 11 million. She questioned them as to whether they were having a hard time making ends meet on 10 million. The answer was -We are very competitive. We like to win and money is how we keep score. HOW DO WE CHANGE THE DIFINITION OF WINNING. I really want to find ways to do that.

Not be a CEO? Or rather, not have a CEO's worldview.  I'm a business owner, but I'm not very competitive nor especially interested in $$.  So maybe not a "winner" on those terms?  I think we can change by modeling a different worldview.  By behaving differently.  

I wonder if it might be worth targeting people in the US who are young, relatively poor, and living in areas that have already declined (Detroit, older suburbs, etc.).  Young people have energy and the ability to learn quickly; poor people could really benefit from saving on energy and food costs; and those living in areas that have declined are less likely to be concerned about "keeping up appearances" or being hassled by HOAs and zoning enforcement.  Land is cheaper there, too (though of course incomes are less).

The blog granolashotgun.com touches on this a bit - there are some young folks in depressed middle American towns that are innovating and working hard and not paying much attention to convention or status-seeking consumerism.  

@Steven K: "I wonder if it might be worth targeting people in the US who are young, relatively poor, and living in areas that have already declined (Detroit, older suburbs, etc.)."

Yes...one such model of which I've posted somewhere else before:

"The ultimate direction of Will’s life truly changed when young people from the neighborhood, including kids who lived in the largest low-income public housing project in Milwaukee, began to ask him for advice and assistance with growing their own vegetables. Almost overnight, Will took up the mantle of teacher and trainer, and the impromptu gathering of neighborhood children became the Youth Corps, a program that continues today. In 1995, Growing Power Inc. was born: a not-for-profit center for urban agriculture training and building community food security systems."

-- http://www.growingpower.org/about/leadership/will-allen/

On a related note:  " We hate Big Ag and GMOs and soil depletion, but unless we’re growing our own food, it’s pretty hard to extract yourself from that system. And we might hate the oil companies and global warming, but everything we touch in our society is either made of or delivered by oil. So how do we go from there without being completely depressed? The people I was after were not those who just dropped out, but those who were trying to invent innovative systems to replace those." -- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mark-sundeen-the-unsettlers-living-off-the-grid_us_5879112fe4b0e58057fe8206?vawtinxml2chaor

Steven Kovacs wrote:I wonder if it might be worth targeting people in the US who are young, relatively poor, and living in areas that have already declined (Detroit, older suburbs, etc.).  Young people have energy and the ability to learn quickly; poor people could really benefit from saving on energy and food costs; and those living in areas that have declined are less likely to be concerned about "keeping up appearances" or being hassled by HOAs and zoning enforcement.  Land is cheaper there, too (though of course incomes are less).
 

Check this out is Detroit! Cleveland is doing good too for the reasons you mentioned.  Ohio City Farm is a great example as Amit pointed out to me.  He also posted Cleveland is zoned agriculture now! The whole city!  That type of innovative thinking creates artisans and vibrant communities 😀

Paul, speaking as one of the perhaps 100,000s of Readers But Never Posters here, I KNOW you are personally responsible for permanent changes in our society.

One day, while seeking logs for my huegels, a conversation with a busy State superintendent of road building turned to swales, terracing and erosion. That was three years ago. The widening of our road now complete, I am pleased that the tall embankments adjoining the highway for several miles now incorporate tiny terraces from top to bottom.

This is a fashion never before seen in this part of the mid-atlantic, and I surmise that the Powers That Be ARE catching on...AND that you are having a desired effect.

Over the years you've seemed to me like the lead actor in those Terminator movies, Justly Battling Evil to the point of acknowledging "I need a vacation..."

Therefore: How about we set up a gofundmeacct to get Paul and loved ones some time-away?

Best to all in 2017

Permaculture today reminds me of another "movement"....that of organic gardening.

Sir Albert Howard,while in India, noticing compost piles while there in the 1940's...

Jerome Irving Rodale, inspired by Howard's writing, established an experimental
organic gardening farm in the 1940's.  JI went on to establish the Rodale Institute and Rodale
Press.

Even in the 1960's, organic gardening was done by "long-haired undesirable hippy-types",
some who had their own property....others who got together and established "communes."

There was no internet to spread the word...on any alternative to Big Ag....until 1968
when Steve Brand first published "The Whole Earth Catalog."

Then it took a number of years after that before the demand for "organic" foods became accepted,
then profitable.  Big Ag pooh-poohed it every chance it could.

I wonder if Permaculture will take the same path...promoted at first by a few people...then
finally it becomes mainstream.

R Jay wrote:Permaculture today reminds me of another "movement"....that of organic gardening.

There was no internet to spread the word...on any alternative to Big Ag

I wonder if Permaculture will take the same path...promoted at first by a few people...then
finally it becomes mainstream.

I've thought and wondered that also with respect to the green washing that can happen with "organic".  The word Permaculture is much harder to own than USDA "organic" .  Joel did us a favor by buying the term "beyond organic" and allowing everyone to use it.  

Paul Wheaton: I think that what I have done is what I will have done.  I have a bit more to do - some podcasts and videos and articles and stuff - but I think that this will continue to be a bit of a novelty to a select few and not reach the larger audience.  

I got to a point that seems similar to yours as ranger and an environmental educator for the National Parks and realizing that most of my coworkers and supervisors gave zero fux about the earth or the kids. Maybe my greatest solace comes from Paul Abbey:

"One final paragraph of advice: do not burn yourselves out. Be as I am - a reluctant enthusiast....a part-time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it’s still here. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, climb the mountains, bag the peaks, run the rivers, breathe deep of that yet sweet and lucid air, sit quietly for a while and contemplate the precious stillness, the lovely, mysterious, and awesome space. Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much; I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those desk-bound men and women with their hearts in a safe deposit box, and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this; You will outlive the bastards.”

R Jay wrote:Permaculture today reminds me of another "movement"....that of organic gardening.

Sir Albert Howard,while in India, noticing compost piles while there in the 1940's...

Jerome Irving Rodale, inspired by Howard's writing, established an experimental
organic gardening farm in the 1940's.  JI went on to establish the Rodale Institute and Rodale
Press.

Even in the 1960's, organic gardening was done by "long-haired undesirable hippy-types",
some who had their own property....others who got together and established "communes."

There was no internet to spread the word...on any alternative to Big Ag....until 1968
when Steve Brand first published "The Whole Earth Catalog."

Then it took a number of years after that before the demand for "organic" foods became accepted,
then profitable.  Big Ag pooh-poohed it every chance it could.

I wonder if Permaculture will take the same path...promoted at first by a few people...then
finally it becomes mainstream.

No need to wonder, since we're on pretty much the same arc.  Remember, Permaculture began in the 1970's, forty years ago, with a few people. The major difference between permaculture and "organic" is that "Organic" got taken over by the agribusiness people (hence the appearance of success in the marketplace today and the peculiar nature of government regulations related to "organic") and Permaculture is much more difficult to co-opt in that manner.  Organic isn't really mainstream, industrial organic (oxymoron much?) has been marketed heavily.

In a sense, if Permaculture goes mainstream, it has failed.  What do I mean by that?  The end result of the wide spread of real Permaculture is a paradigm shift, not an acceptance of Permaculture into the mainstream but a wholesale shift of the flow into a new channel.  This is why I don't feel concerned that there are not lots of examples of Permaculture operations on large scale demonstrating commercial success, or that there aren't lots of Permaculture millionaires with loads of cash money from their operations, or - pick another measure of success under the current paradigm, the one that has driven industrial agriculture and taken our world to the point we are at today.  In my opinion, none of these measures is a suitable way of judging success for a Permaculture operation.  Paul's hypothetical "Gert" is much more appropriate, again, in my opinion.

Agreed.  And we must all take responsibility for getting the word out.  

People tend to fall into several categories
1. Those in complete denial that anything is wrong
2. Those in denial about their ability to help fix the problems
3. Those in despair about their inability to create positive change
4. Those who think they are saving the world by recycling and shopping at Whole Foods
5. Those who are creating positive, regenerative change but are still contributing to problems that are tightly ingrained in society.
6. Those who move to the woods, live underground, entirely off the grid, heating with twigs, eating nuts and berries, and are never heard from again.

Many of us here fall into category 5.  We are moving forward, to the best of our abilities, trying to live as responsibly as possible in an imperfect society.  If we teach enough category 2, 3, and 4 people, we can change society into a regenerative whole.  But that's a big step (or a lot of small steps).

So, yes, concerned people need to focus MORE on getting the word out and less on complaining.  Nobody likes a whiner.  This is why I love Permaculture people.  So many of us are getting out there, avoiding the unproductive scuffles and name-calling foolishness.  We're doing cool stuff, speaking truth gently to people regardless of race, religion, creed, gender & gender identification, political party affiliation, etc.  We are united by the facts that everyone needs to eat, anyone can benefit from a garden, the best things in the world are regenerative, and we all do better when we work efficiently and together.

If you're in the Rhode Island or Southern MA, I'm hosting a discussion on "Urban Permaculture" on 1/27 at Fertile Underground in Providence.  You can sign up at PermacultureProvidence.org.

We lost some shining stars in 2016, but their spirits live on in all of us.