Fukuoka and clover seeds

I'm a small farmer in Norway that wants to convert my 2000m2 plowed grain fields into a not till system inspired by Masanobu Fukuoka. In the beginning I will establish a white clover cover crop and grow grains together with the clover. Later I will try to sow some other cover crop plants so I get a bit more diversity. Does anybody know if Fukuoka was dependent on buying clover seeds? I would like to avoid this, but I'm not sure if it's realistic. My thought is that the clover growing toghether with the grains will have time to produce seeds until harvesting time, and that you don't have to sow more than once (when you establish it). Since plants most often produce a great surplus of seeeds, I can't see why it would be necessary to add more seeds later. But it seems like Fukuoka did sow clover together with grains now and then in his permanent clover/grain field. Can anybody explain me why he needed to do this?

I think Fukuoka did sow clover annually. I can only assume that the competition for light with the relatively tall growing grain knocked it back.  I also read he left the field flooded for a couple of weeks which also weakened the clover along with less desirable 'weeds'.
There have been a few threads here on adopting Fukuoka methods in cooler climates. I'm just starting to prepare an area to try simple vegetable and grain rotation, but on a much smaller scale!
Have you read about John Letts work with heritage grains? See this article in the ecologist for example.

It seems like a likely theory Nancy.

I have thought of having a permanent clover field without grains and let them go to seed, then cut and dry the clover and spread the hay with the seeds on the grain fields in the spring after the snow has gone. Then I don't have to thresh the clover for the seeds, and I don't have to buy new clover seeds. The question is if the clover in this permanent clover field will be outcompeted by other "weeds" after some years. It should at leat be well seeded because by flipping the hay a lot af seeds will fall on the ground and help giving the clover an advantage.

I have read some experiments with Fukuokas method in combination with winter cereals, but since I want to grow heritage spring varieties this is not an option to me. Have you heard about some experiments with spring cereals?

Seems like this John Letts is doing the same as we have been doing for 8 years now, although in a more mechanized way (we only use horse and man powered machines). Our conclusion is that the soil loose so much fertility by plowing and that it's impossible for us to compensate for this by adding compost and manure. The yields have been going down year by year. That's why we want to develop a no till method. It's so impressive that Fukuoka managed to get so high yields.

Are you also trying a no till method Nancy?

Hi Halvard,
I'm hoping to achieve no till, but I'm at a very early stage and my growing area has highly compacted silt (historically ploughed for potatoes and then trampled by sheep). At present therefore I'm at a soil remediation stage and aim this year only to grow in a small area to start some vegetable landraces. You can read about my project here, but it won't be directly relevant for you I'm afraid.

You could have a look at this thread, which may give some pointers:
https://permies.com/t/44848/Natural-Farming-Barley-experiment
Or search in https://permies.com/f/104/fukuoka forum for "spring", "barley" etc. and see what looks hopeful.

I think that the "do nothing" technique always needs a bit of tweaking to suit the climate, crops and location. If you can share your experiences it would be very interesting. Particularly for those with more land to manage.

I found this article about some trials in Scotland using clover as a permanent understorey.

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/10647-could-clover-be-holy-grail-of-arable-farming

It's from last year, so there maybe more information available now

Thanks for the links Nancy, I'll look into it!
I'll try to keep you updated on my project, I'll start with some smaller trial areas this year and scale it up next year if I find something that works. I feel that finding a way to weaken the clover in the start will be the key to success. Fukuoka used flooding, but I cant do that as I don't grow rice. I have som ideas in my head that I will test out. I think one advantage for me is that the snow lies on my grain fields until the beginning of May, and I can sow quite fast after that. This means that the clover will not have time to grow much before the grains sprout, but I think I still have to weaken it a bit in addition.

I now got confirmed from one of Fukuokas students (Panos Manikis) that Fukuoka bought clover seeds. I must admit that it's a bit disappointing since clover was such an important part of his system. I think that growing clover for seed over a long period of time without tilling is very difficult, because you will probably get a lot of other unwanted plants growing toghether with it as time passes. By tilling you can have better control of the the unwanted plants. You can of course also use herbicides in stead of tilling, but I don't think that's a good option. So this means that a natural farmer using clover as a cover crop is dependent on another farmer tilling his soil to produce the seeds. I think of course, that this is a much better option than having both the farmers tilling the soil, and the clover seed farmer can produce seeds to alot of natural farmers. So in total, it will be much less tilling.

Btw; could somebody move this thread to the Masanobu Fukuoka forum?