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Here's my take, Paul. Straw is the end result of harvesting grain. The grain (or seed head) is removed. In this way, a person who builds a straw baled house, as opposed to a hay baled house does not have a house full of grain seed, but a house full of grain stalks, eliminating a huge risk of pests.Second, hay and straw are the exact same thing, only harvested at different times (hay was cut when green and then dried; straw was cut when the plant had already turned yellow and dry by itself). The risk of seeds is the same.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
This thread is a tangent from the permaculture superpower in berms
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:
Here's my take, Paul. Straw is the end result of harvesting grain. The grain (or seed head) is removed. In this way, a person who builds a straw baled house, as opposed to a hay baled house does not have a house full of grain seed, but a house full of grain stalks, eliminating a huge risk of pests.Second, hay and straw are the exact same thing, only harvested at different times (hay was cut when green and then dried; straw was cut when the plant had already turned yellow and dry by itself). The risk of seeds is the same.
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R Ranson wrote:Straw is from grain stems. Hay is from grasses.
My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!
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R Ranson wrote:From the point of someone who cares for livestock, hay is based on nutritional quality. I think this goes back again to pre-industrial times when straw was far more useful than livestock feed. The stuff with a strong structure (which is also hard for the livestock to eat) would be put to one side for use, and hay would be for feeding to the animals. In this context, hay is a very specific thing.Enter the modern world. We have little use for hay or straw in this post plastic, grain-fed-livestock
errorera. But they sure are cool words.
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I guess the modern nomenclature of straw has not been set in stone yet, but that's not to say that I've personally ever heard of straw being defined as Paul has. I wasn't intending to start an argument but to clarify where my thinking was coming from. I'm glad to see this thread created in it's honor, and that more people have involved themselves in it.The use of the language is changing constantly. Hay and Straw seem to be in a state of flux the last 10 years or so.
so too is straw used on the dairy farms in this area, though all the dairies here grow their own straw rather than purchasing it. I have purchased excess straw from these dairies for straw bale building in this valley, and I've never seen any grain seed in it. I'm not saying there is not any, but that I do not consider seed to be an aspect of straw at all.On most dairy farms and other livestock farms that care for their animals properly and utilize animal nutritionists, straw is actually purchased and given to the livestock in very specific rations. This is to ensure there is enough "roughage" for the ruminant animal. Where I live, we see this a lot on dairy farms where nutrition to the animal is important because animals only give milk when all their nutritional needs are met.
However, disturbing the mulch/soil will germinate excess seeds which are prevalent in my experience, in the spoiled hay mulch that I get, and thinly mulching seems to make this worse.And out of the 5% of the time where something does germinate, I mulch with more of the same and ... problem solved!
Like with my straw bale house building experience, this is not my experience because I directly associate straw with Paul's next quote,The bottom line is that both hay and straw usually have viable seeds.
Generally a crop matures to a fairly even height and this is the height that the grain is harvested from the stalks, thus eliminating or separating a very high % of the grain from the straw, particularly with a combine harvester. On top of this, I don't personally consider grain to be a problem weed in my garden, unlike Timothy, Quack Grass, or other perennial rhizome spreading grasses, and I do not experience any, or virtually none, when I have used straw for mulch in the past. I get the spoiled hay for my garden simply because I can get a massive amount of mulch for a great deal cheaper than getting straw. The hay might be more nutritionally dense, so I do gain there, but if I was intending to go for as few weed seeds in my surface layers, I would definitely choose straw.And then in the world of straw, the seeds were definitely mature, and just the heads were cut off .... of the stalks that were the tallest. The seed heads on the shorter stalks are still there.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
from what I understand the term silage comes from farmers historically putting the chopped green material in a silo in order to store and ferment it. In modern terms we see people plastic wrapping green 'damp' bales; changing through fermentation-and in many people's minds increasing- it's nutrition to the same effect. The term silage comes from the word silo, but it's modern use as coming from these plastic wrapped bales seems to be naturally derived. The plastic wrap serves the same purpose of denying the green material of oxygen and thus allowing for fermenting and is the modern silo in this effect, and so the people who consider this baled material silage (as an end product) are not as far from the truth as you seem to think, since it's the product that has essentially stayed the same, in my opinion, if not my limited experience. This also seems to be verified by a fairly quick google definition of the term.The feed terminology that has changed for me has been "silage".
Years ago when you fed silage, you were feeding grass silage, chopped up with a purpose built chopper. Today with that invention of "baleage", or green hay that is wrapped in white plastic to ensile it, many people mistakenly call that "silage". To me it is just plain wrong terminology, but since I cannot some to win, and every time I say I use "silage" people are like, "yes I feed out those bales too", I have learned to just give in and call it "green chop." It is wrong because green chop only stems from flail choppers designed to cut and feed out that day, but there too I must just give in to a changing world.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Roberto pokachinni wrote:
The term silage comes from the word silo...
This is a common misconception. Sileage does NOT come from the word silo, but rather "to ensile", which means "to prepare and store (fodder) so as to induce conversion to silage". The modern day silo was named due to the purpose it was intended for..."to ensile fodder". It is interesting to note that in other countries that ensile fodder, they do so not in silos, but rather in "clamps".
All this is pretty much just splitting hairs I know, but it sure mucks up the waters in terms of terminology.
Myself I am not a big fan of baleage because of the plastic wrap. It is used only once and 9 out of 10 farms that use it have streams of it flapping in the breeze when heavy winds carried it to their fences where it got caught and is flapping away. I prefer instead grass and corn silage for a lot of reasons; and while it is true a bunker style type of ensiling uses plastic too, it is reusable for several years.
I guess my biggest question is, considering how easy silage is to put up (corn or grass silage), why more homesteaders seem to be stuck on the notion that you have to feed hay to livestock? It would save many farms a lot of money every year.
I agree.All this is pretty much just splitting hairs I know, but it sure mucks up the waters in terms of terminology.
I feel the same way. Some locals burn it after use... and I'm down wind. I'm considering calling the authorities the next time they do, as I just don't know how to approach them about how wrong it is.Myself I am not a big fan of baleage because of the plastic wrap. It is used only once and 9 out of 10 farms that use it have streams of it flapping in the breeze when heavy winds carried it to their fences where it got caught and is flapping away.
My understanding is that because it is often made from rich green material, and fermented, it is often too rich, and this can be dangerous if not mixed with hay and straw. Cattle bloat and die, from my understanding.I guess my biggest question is, considering how easy silage is to put up (corn or grass silage), why more homesteaders seem to be stuck on the notion that you have to feed hay to livestock?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
When I was looking up silage and hay, I came across a few definitions for haylage, so... hard to say.What do you guys think haylage means these days? I know the circa 1920s meaning for Suffolk, but back then there was a lot of regional variation. I have a feeling that the meaning today is quite different.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
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Mark Clipsham wrote:Sometimes you guys sound like scientists describing love.
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Strong belief triggers the mind to find the way
Jason Howell wrote:The simplest and most accurate definition Imo is straw is made from grains eg.(barley,wheat) after they have been harvested of their seeds.
Hay is usually referring to Alfalfa although it can have grasses in it. There is such a thing as grass hay. When using the term "hay" I usually find that it is referring to animal feed. Straws can be feed to animals if it is substituted with hay or something more nutritional.
Strong belief triggers the mind to find the way
Travis Johnson wrote:
Roberto pokachinni wrote:The term silage comes from the word silo...
This is a common misconception. Sileage does NOT come from the word silo, but rather "to ensile", which means "to prepare and store (fodder) so as to induce conversion to silage". The modern day silo was named due to the purpose it was intended for..."to ensile fodder". It is interesting to note that in other countries that ensile fodder, they do so not in silos, but rather in "clamps".
All this is pretty much just splitting hairs I know, but it sure mucks up the waters in terms of terminology.
Myself I am not a big fan of baleage because of the plastic wrap. It is used only once and 9 out of 10 farms that use it have streams of it flapping in the breeze when heavy winds carried it to their fences where it got caught and is flapping away. I prefer instead grass and corn silage for a lot of reasons; and while it is true a bunker style type of ensiling uses plastic too, it is reusable for several years.
I guess my biggest question is, considering how easy silage is to put up (corn or grass silage), why more homesteaders seem to be stuck on the notion that you have to feed hay to livestock? It would save many farms a lot of money every year.
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"A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself." FDR
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Einstein
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"A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself." FDR
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Einstein
Krofter Young wrote:Besides, in my 63 years of agriculture I've never heard any of the farmers in my home town refer to perennial grass as straw.
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"A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself." FDR
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Einstein
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Best luck: satisfaction
Greatest curse, greed
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Nothing difficult is ever easy!
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Mark Clipsham wrote:It has been my understanding it is possible to specify "weed free" staw.
