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Observed and interacted, used small and slow solutions and now, at a loss

 
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My garden is complex - I'm sure looking at my post history gives some insights. However, one area has completely stumped me, and I've no idea what to do.

It is circa 1000sqm of pretty flat land, sits with a river on its southern boundary and has a small copse of alder and willow around a depression. It floods/gets boggy seasonally as the river, and water table come up. When we arrived five years ago, it was mainly grassed, having been mown with a sit-on mower by the prior owner. We didn't know what to do here but figured a meadow-type space would be right - so I managed it gently and tried to observe.

I scythed it in accordance with meadow creation timings (a couple of times a year), but otherwise, let it be.

Cut to now, and we have a muddy area; the grasses are about 50-60% reduced. In its place are creeping buttercup and nettles, increasing their hold each year and spreading elsewhere into the garden. On the area closest to the river is an annual influx of Himalayan balsam, seeding from other locations upriver. We have rats who appear to live underground in the small wooded area. It is, in short, a wreck. It looks like a wasteland, our young kids cannot use it due to the nettles, and it saps hours and hours, days and days in management annually. I scythe and strim, hoping to affect at least standing still, but it gets worse every year.

I've considered a pond in the depression = it would need local authority permission so close to a river, and it's been denied. I've tried to manage it gently = it is markedly worse than before; when worked with a sit-on mower. I've tried planting a few autumn olive bushes = rabbits obliterated them (we have a woodland on our eastern boundary FULL of rabbits).

I'm now being told that if I want to shift it at all, given the pernicious weeds, roundup, black plastic or some other massive footprint solution is likely needed. It is markedly worse than when I started.

I suppose you could characterise this as ranting, which is not my intent. I guess I have lost my way in this space. Still, I am completely failing to see where this problem is the solution...any insight on such an area and its recovery from your personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

UK, SW, zone 9ish.
 
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Hi MJ! I've added your thread to the new wetlands forum.

I've had a little think about what you describe and have a few comments. Maybe not helpful, but may trigger others' thoughts and experiences.

At first I wondered whether the area was shaded (this will not favour the grasses) but you say it is 1000 sq m which would be about 35 metre diameter? Unless the trees are really tall there should be a reasonable amount of sun, especially with the open (?) river at the South. You say the previous owner mowed with a ride on. Do you know how often/ how short they cut the grass? Long grass does tend to shade itself out and become clumpy in my experience; the sort of grasses in a lawn are different to those in a meadow.

The fact the nettles are proliferating suggests that the area is quite fertile soil. Are you removing the cut grass from the area? If it is let be it will increase the fertility further and also mulch itself out in patches. Buttercups love damp soil - they don't like to be mowed down. I now have fewer buttercups in my paths compared to the rest of my field despite only being mown a few times a year. Nettles of course do have multiple uses (one of our useful threads on nettles) but adding to an amenity area is not one of them! I have a few relatively slowly patches of nettles and they can be excessively antisocial in our climate. They don't like being mown, but probably twice a year is not often enough to get rid of an established patch. The only way I've found is to heavily mulch for at least 2 years, or dig/pull any shoots the second year. They do make a stingy understory to my raspberry patch which I just tend to tolerate and trample/chop and drop. I'd love to have a go again at making fiber from nettles...

Himalyan Balsam is not a plant I've had much experience with. It does look pretty! Ken Fern gives it a 3* for edibility (ref), so that may be worth a try. From an eradication point of view it sounds like the timing is critical. If is cut low down below the bottom node it will not regrow. As an annual that is one less (large) plant to shade out your grass and reseed in. If you cut too high apparently it will shoot up lots of flowering spikes rather than just the one (ref)!
I've not had much success with autumn olive either, I think I'm juts a bit too cool for them to thrive.

Bunnies and Rats; both of these will eat anything you want to grow and leave what you don't. The rats would probably be less of a problem if there weren't so much shelter, but bunnies love short grass of course as well.

The default condition I suppose would be to go back to the mower regime. That would at least give you open ground again, but mowing twice a month during the growing season doesn't sound much fun! I'm sure there must be some 'problem is the solution' though! If it were mine I'd be tempted to plant more alder and willow (coppice/pollard woodland), although you'd need to protect the willow from the bunnies.
 
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What I had to do on my first farm in the hayfield was mow with the setting high. The weeds would grow faster than grasses so I’d set the mower to the top of the grass and just knock the top off the weeds before they went to seed. After a year or two it made the grass do very well because the weeds never got to seed. And the cut weed tops provided fertility for what I wanted.

I think by letting it go to a meadow the weeds get to go to seed and they regrow better than grass.

This can be done by hand although I’ve never done that.

In short I would do the above and after a few times the grass should outdo the weeds where you can let it go to a meadow after. Hopefully after year two the grass will be strongest and it will become less maintenance.  
 
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Nancy has given you some very sound advice.

I would like to suggest what I would do if this plot were mine. This also would depend on the fact that wood chips would need to be available.

I would start with a small section at a time.  I would cover those sections with cardboard and 6" of wood chips.

As more wood chips became available I would work on another section, etc until the whole area is covered with cardboard and wood chips.

I hope that something will work out for you.

 
Mj Lacey
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Nancy Reading wrote:Hi MJ! I've added your thread to the new wetlands forum.

I've had a little think about what you describe and have a few comments. Maybe not helpful, but may trigger others' thoughts and experiences.

At first I wondered whether the area was shaded (this will not favour the grasses) but you say it is 1000 sq m which would be about 35 metre diameter? Unless the trees are really tall there should be a reasonable amount of sun, especially with the open (?) river at the South. You say the previous owner mowed with a ride on. Do you know how often/ how short they cut the grass? Long grass does tend to shade itself out and become clumpy in my experience; the sort of grasses in a lawn are different to those in a meadow.

The fact the nettles are proliferating suggests that the area is quite fertile soil. Are you removing the cut grass from the area? If it is let be it will increase the fertility further and also mulch itself out in patches. Buttercups love damp soil - they don't like to be mowed down. I now have fewer buttercups in my paths compared to the rest of my field despite only being mown a few times a year. Nettles of course do have multiple uses (one of our useful threads on nettles) but adding to an amenity area is not one of them! I have a few relatively slowly patches of nettles and they can be excessively antisocial in our climate. They don't like being mown, but probably twice a year is not often enough to get rid of an established patch. The only way I've found is to heavily mulch for at least 2 years, or dig/pull any shoots the second year. They do make a stingy understory to my raspberry patch which I just tend to tolerate and trample/chop and drop. I'd love to have a go again at making fiber from nettles...

Himalyan Balsam is not a plant I've had much experience with. It does look pretty! Ken Fern gives it a 3* for edibility (ref), so that may be worth a try. From an eradication point of view it sounds like the timing is critical. If is cut low down below the bottom node it will not regrow. As an annual that is one less (large) plant to shade out your grass and reseed in. If you cut too high apparently it will shoot up lots of flowering spikes rather than just the one (ref)!
I've not had much success with autumn olive either, I think I'm juts a bit too cool for them to thrive.

Bunnies and Rats; both of these will eat anything you want to grow and leave what you don't. The rats would probably be less of a problem if there weren't so much shelter, but bunnies love short grass of course as well.

The default condition I suppose would be to go back to the mower regime. That would at least give you open ground again, but mowing twice a month during the growing season doesn't sound much fun! I'm sure there must be some 'problem is the solution' though! If it were mine I'd be tempted to plant more alder and willow (coppice/pollard woodland), although you'd need to protect the willow from the bunnies.



Thanks very much Nancy.

The prior owner was trying to attempt a 'lawn' type space across the rest of the garden, so I will assume the same approach applied here. Mowed short and often.

Going back in time to a similar mowing schedule feels expensive - I would have to acquire a ride-on mower, then store it somewhere, use petrol etc. - I appreciate the thought to eradicate the immediate issue, but the cost of infrastructure would probably make it unviable.

More than anything, this boils down to me questioning the principles now; observing and interacting has made this markedly worse (I stress, this is in my eyes and may not be how the landscape 'feels'). I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and consider where 'the problem is the solution', but am completely stumped on how that can be true.

I've raised the question here as it's very easy for me to apply silo-type thinking - despite my stamping and complaining, it is extremely unlikely that I have a uniquely hard landscape. There is no way that the permaculture approach applies to every other part of the world, apart from a patch that happens to exist in my garden. I just need some help seeing the answer.

I've tried bringing in external permie-minded help and come up with nothing. I approached a VERY well-known UK, south-west based permaculturalist to obtain some paid design insight. The answer was essentially that he has no interest in designing any more, only teaching. I've had other lesser well-known permie 'pros' or ecologically minded neighbours come and give advice, but nobody has come up with an answer for this area beyond 'mow it like a meadow, and see what happens', which I have a blood and sweat rinsed answer for, at least to this point.
 
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Mj Lacey wrote:
Going back in time to a similar mowing schedule feels expensive - I would have to acquire a ride-on mower, then store it somewhere, use petrol etc. - I appreciate the thought to eradicate the immediate issue, but the cost of infrastructure would probably make it unviable.


Yes I think the same thing - I only mow my paths a few times a year. But that's fine for us, we do have the equipment - a nice scythe mower to cut long grass, although I prefer my scythe. The mower is "quicker", but leaves all the cuttings all over to rake up, whereas the scythe does most of the gathering for me. Most of our field has no seeds other than a few hazels and docken. Yes we also have creeping thistle and now blackthorn (sloe). Most of these are easy to transplant or live with. I'm mainly aiming for a woodland with clearings, and the trees will shade out my 'weeds' in time.


More than anything, this boils down to me questioning the principles now; observing and interacting has made this markedly worse (I stress, this is in my eyes and may not be how the landscape 'feels'). I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and consider where 'the problem is the solution', but am completely stumped on how that can be true.


It does sort of appear that the land doesn't want to be a meadow. Have you examples in your area of the sort of landscape you are aiming for? Can you go and see how they are managed? I still think that the possible lack of sun may be the issue, or maybe the timing of the grass cut. I assume without intervention the land would revert to marshy woodland via brambles...
 
Mj Lacey
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Nancy Reading wrote:

Mj Lacey wrote:
Going back in time to a similar mowing schedule feels expensive - I would have to acquire a ride-on mower, then store it somewhere, use petrol etc. - I appreciate the thought to eradicate the immediate issue, but the cost of infrastructure would probably make it unviable.


Yes I think the same thing - I only mow my paths a few times a year. But that's fine for us, we do have the equipment - a nice scythe mower to cut long grass, although I prefer my scythe. The mower is "quicker", but leaves all the cuttings all over to rake up, whereas the scythe does most of the gathering for me. Most of our field has no seeds other than a few hazels and docken. Yes we also have creeping thistle and now blackthorn (sloe). Most of these are easy to transplant or live with. I'm mainly aiming for a woodland with clearings, and the trees will shade out my 'weeds' in time.


More than anything, this boils down to me questioning the principles now; observing and interacting has made this markedly worse (I stress, this is in my eyes and may not be how the landscape 'feels'). I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt here and consider where 'the problem is the solution', but am completely stumped on how that can be true.


It does sort of appear that the land doesn't want to be a meadow. Have you examples in your area of the sort of landscape you are aiming for? Can you go and see how they are managed? I still think that the possible lack of sun may be the issue, or maybe the timing of the grass cut. I assume without intervention the land would revert to marshy woodland via brambles...



Thanks, Nancy.

Apologies, I don't think I've communicated this clearly - I agree entirely; meadow is the wrong habitat in this riparian patch.

We approached the area with a very light touch, considering meadow as our preferred outcome, but after a couple of years, that being wrong, became clear.

However, my struggle is now reversing the damage (insights alluded to in the first post have essentially been to use carcinogenic chemicals, plastic or relatively substantial machinery), and also coming up with ideas as to what to let the space lean into. I have to do something as the pernicious weeds are getting harder and harder to manage; I am losing the battle, and nature is bringing it into the rest of the garden too.

Perennially wet, increasingly nettle and buttercup-ridden ground, next to a river. Zone 2/3 type location (furthest from the house, but not zone 4/5, probably), I'm stumped on ideas I can follow through on, either for dealing with current situation, or where it goes.
 
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Are there any wet-ish meadows with the type of vegetation you want anywhere nearby? And how long had this spot been a lawn when you moved in? What I'm getting at is that plants have to come from somewhere, and if the place was a lawn for long enough to wreck the soil seed bank, and the plants you want aren't anywhere in the area, then you'd have to intentionally sow them.

Also, nettles and creeping buttercup are both indicator species of nitrogen, so probably you have lots and lots of that if they are the dominant species. I don't know about wet meadows, but meadow-type vegetation in drier places does not benefit from excessive amounts of nitrogen. With too much, you tend to get coarse grass and, yeah, nettles rather than the plants you want.

A couple of ideas for solutions: (I'm far from being an expert, mind you, so please take these with a fistful of salt...)

If you are set on having a meadow there, try to get rid of or bind up the nitrogen. Don't know exactly how to best accomplish this, but I wonder if adding a whole bunch of raw charcoal would help. Also, alders are nitrogen fixers, so definitely rake up the alder leaves in autumn and put them somewhere where an addition of nitrogen would be more in line with your plan. Cutting the nettles frequently (so often they don't have time to go to seed) and using them, too, as covering material for other areas might also work. Once you have removed a bit of the nitrogen, you could start introducing plants that thrive in wet meadows. Some sort of mint might be good to introduce, as they are tough and resilient and definitely don't mind wet feet...

If you're flexible about what to use this space for, given the large amounts of nitrogen, growing vegetables might work better. You'd probably need raised beds or something like that to prevent the veggies getting too wet. The rabbits might be a problem for this idea, but I'm sure there are solutions (like eating the rabbits!)

On a side note, Himalayan balsam seeds are awesome food! Nutty and fatty, and if you get a lot I bet they would make really nice oil too. Gathering them is a bit challenging (since the seed pods explode on touch) but good fun. The seeds do have a kind of bitter by-flavour that I suspect might be due to oxalates, so if one wanted to eat a lot of them it might be advisable to try to remove these somehow.
 
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It sounds like ecological succession going on, with the weeds preparing the soil for a future forest.  The buttercup is keep the soil from eroding, and the nettle is soaking up the extra nutrients, again to keep them from washing away.  Since a meadow isn't ideal for this spot, I give my vote for a little woodland with well spaced trees and perhaps a path or two throughout.  The willow and alder are good trees for this, and can be coppiced if needed for firewood/basketry/animal feed/etc.  I'm sure many other trees would flourish here, including some fruit or nut trees if desired.

Another thought:  it sounds as though some animals might enjoy this space too, particularly ducks and/or geese;  however, as you may be aware, in the UK we are under a housing order for all domestic birds because of avian influenza, so they obviously would not be able to access it until this is lifted (last year's ended in May).

Additional thought:  mentioned above, some people will simply mow paths through their meadows instead of mowing the whole thing, which would certainly save on effort for you, and still make the space useable for humans.  Have the kids build a den in the best hidey spot and mow an unexpected path to it.  Put in a bench with a view to a bird feeder and mow to these.  Mow a path to the best part of the river for stone skipping.  Let the rest grow to its nettle-y, buttercup-y, bramble-y potential.
 
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G Freden wrote:It sounds like ecological succession going on, with the weeds preparing the soil for a future forest.  The buttercup is keep the soil from eroding, and the nettle is soaking up the extra nutrients, again to keep them from washing away.  Since a meadow isn't ideal for this spot, I give my vote for a little woodland with well spaced trees and perhaps a path or two throughout.  The willow and alder are good trees for this, and can be coppiced if needed for firewood/basketry/animal feed/etc.  I'm sure many other trees would flourish here, including some fruit or nut trees if desired.



This is a really good idea.  I knew the buttercup and nettles were there for a reason, I just could not point to the right direction.

Permaculture is living with nature.  So I like the idea of creating a woodland forest.

I have learned to live with the weeds. The ones I disliked the most have moved out of my space.

Observation is only one of the 12 Principles of Permaculture.

Observation is good though I believe it is meant to be used alongside the other principles.

Nuno Donato said, "One thing that fascinates me a lot is hearing stories of how people have applied some of the 12 Permaculture principles in order to solve a problem, or create a better way to do something,



Rachel replied with this quote:

"Suffering is feedback for bad (and ugly) design." (p.174)



From:

Building Your Permaculture Property (Avis & Coen)



https://permies.com/t/86645/Applying-permaculture-principles-spheres-life#712859

 
Mj Lacey
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G Freden wrote:It sounds like ecological succession going on, with the weeds preparing the soil for a future forest.  The buttercup is keep the soil from eroding, and the nettle is soaking up the extra nutrients, again to keep them from washing away.  Since a meadow isn't ideal for this spot, I give my vote for a little woodland with well spaced trees and perhaps a path or two throughout.  The willow and alder are good trees for this, and can be coppiced if needed for firewood/basketry/animal feed/etc.  I'm sure many other trees would flourish here, including some fruit or nut trees if desired.

Another thought:  it sounds as though some animals might enjoy this space too, particularly ducks and/or geese;  however, as you may be aware, in the UK we are under a housing order for all domestic birds because of avian influenza, so they obviously would not be able to access it until this is lifted (last year's ended in May).

Additional thought:  mentioned above, some people will simply mow paths through their meadows instead of mowing the whole thing, which would certainly save on effort for you, and still make the space useable for humans.  Have the kids build a den in the best hidey spot and mow an unexpected path to it.  Put in a bench with a view to a bird feeder and mow to these.  Mow a path to the best part of the river for stone skipping.  Let the rest grow to its nettle-y, buttercup-y, bramble-y potential.



Sounds like a possibility. I must admit, in prior years, I had considered a couple of weaners on this space. They would do a good job of rooting out nettles etc. I've also read that they will eat balsam, which would be a great deal easier than me pulling it over and over again.
 
Mj Lacey
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Chiming back in here. I am seriously considering using a part of this garden area for our fenced vegetable garden. The highest, most sunny part is mainly grasses and buttercup at the moment. There is sufficient sun, it's flat; it could work. My only concern is water if the river on the boundary comes up.

I've reviewed my notes from the time we've been here - its never flooded. However, the water table has come up, maybe 4-5" or so off the surface.

Given that it's never flooded on my watch - but did 23 years ago - would you consider that use?

 
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Mj Lacey wrote:

We didn't know what to do here but figured a meadow-type space would be right - so I managed it gently and tried to observe.

It seems to me as if you observed, but Mother Nature just has different ideas than the one you chose. I hear your frustration - you feel like you did the best you could, but rather than the land responding the way you thought it would, it's gone off on a tangent you not only didn't expect, but also didn't want.

1. Is there some way to determine what that land would have looked like 300 years ago? What plants would have been there then? If you could determine that, even if you didn't want those exact plants, you might be able to find plants you do want that fill that niche.

For example Milpa gardening was done on mounds. This could be advantageous if you do have a wetter than usual spring.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82784-2#:~:text=The%20milpa%20is%20a%20traditional,great%20diversity%20of%20crop%20combinations.

2. You identify it as a boggy area. Let's look at the bigger picture. My Municipality has a mapping program with topo lines every three feet. If you had access to the same or similar, it would be interesting to see if in fact, that depression was originally a path the river took, which gradually filled with silt and then during the spring flush, the river found a new course. Rivers used to be allowed to do that, but humans seem to think they can resist the power of water!
What you're describing doesn't look as large as an Oxbow lake turned bog, but this is the concept I'm thinking you need to look at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake

You've identified that the boggy plants that have chosen this land aren't ones you want. Can you identify some bog-loving plants you would like to have growing between you and the river. Some cattails and rushes might fit that description.
I recently learned about a plant called Meadowfoam that I'd love to try planting in a low area of my back field, although I don't think it would survive contact with my ducks, so I have to figure out a way to help the two co-exist!  https://pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Limnanthes+alba

3. You've identified rabbit pressure. Rabbits can destroy the best laid plans! In the past, the solution was owls, raptors, humans, foxes and probably more. If there are local owls or raptors that are known to target rabbits, are there nest boxes or similar that you could build and hang in the area to support their valuable contribution to re-balancing the rabbit population? That would be a longer term solution. Short term, I suspect your only solution would be serious fencing. I have issues with both rabbits and deer and the frustration of seeing all one's hard work disappear in one night is not something I'd wish on anyone!

I don't think there's a magic bullet that's going to fix this. It certainly sounds as if you need plants that can handle water-logged roots, and personally, if it flooded in the past, there's a good chance it will flood again unless you actually build it up in some way. However, by planting flood-tolerant plants that can intercept and redirect the water if/when it happens, you will have helped Mother Nature be just a little more resilient, and she could use plenty of help these days. Hopefully some of these ideas will be useful as you try to find a way forward. Hang in there!
 
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