HELP! KNF & chickens

Hello,
I recently learned about KNF and chickens.  I went thru the whole IMO/LAB process, and then set up a pen for my birds using the Dr. Cho method.

It's not working.

I see lots of poop, when I was told it would just "melt away".

After a month, it started to smell a bit.  Not bad, but a little.

On the FB KNF forum,  I was told that I didn't have enough bedding down (I'm using hemp hurd), even tho I followed Master Cho's plan exactly.  

What happens is, the poops dry out and turn into little grey rocks, but they don't break down.  The pen is covered and very dry.

Then, I was told it was too dry, and that it should be very slightly moist.  Now, I thought it was supposed to be dry???  So, I wet it, not a lot.  Just enough to make it very slightly damp.  Then, I added another inch of hemp on top.

This morning, I went down to check.  Looked OK, but when I gave it a little stir, I smelled ammonia!  I stirred the entire pen, and the smell dissipated.  I'm hoping it's because there was a "backlog" of fossilized poop in there.

I don't know what to do.  HELP!

Hi, Lori

I am sorry that no one has answered your question.

Does the problem have something to do with the IMO3 sprayed on the deep litter?  Is the IMO3 not working?

Is the litter not deep enough?

Here are some threads that you or other folks might find interesting:

https://permies.com/t/38785/Korean-Natural-Farming-Poultry

https://permies.com/t/69926/JADAM-Korean-farming-experiences-tropics

Usually when I get frustrated, the problem tends to be something that I missed while doing the basics. I'm not too familiar with the KNF process but I found a scholarly article from the University of Hawaii that seems to break down the basics. Maybe another view would maybe give you some ideas?

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-17.pdf

I'm just starting into chickens so I'll do a bit of a deeper dive as I have time.

Anne Miller wrote:Hi, Lori

Does the problem have something to do with the IMO3 sprayed on the deep litter?  Is the IMO3 not working?

Is the litter not deep enough?

Hi Anne,
Thank you so much for the links!  I will be going thru them today.  

Do you do KNF?  This is the first time I ever tried it, having only learned about it this summer.  I followed all the Chris Trump videos on IMOs and LAB.  I think I did it right.  I know the LAB I made definitely has a nice, bready smell to it once it's dissolved in water.  The only part that might have gone off was when I added the IMO to dirt.  It never heated up, altho I have read that it doesn't always.  I used it anyway, along with biochar and hemp.

I put down 2" of hemp hurd on top of the IMO and biochar.  I sprayed it with LAB.  2" is what the Master Cho book and videos say to use, but on the Facebook KNF page, I'm told you need way more?  It's such a confusing, "Do as I say, not as I do" situation!

To tell you the truth, I just don't understand how anything can compost without water.  I'm in a very summer dry, Mediterranean climate.  My pen has a roof over it to keep out rain.  When I was using shavings, the poop never decomposed, it just sort of mummified.  Everyone says KNF and deep litter decomposes and turns into mulch: I just haven't seen it.  It just dries up.  

I tried an experiment.  I watered one half of the pen to get it just a little damp.  The next day, I got a slight ammonia smell.  I turned everything over and added a little more hemp and IMO, and the smell went away.  So, did the watering work?

At this point, I am even more confused than when I started.

Timothy Norton wrote:Usually when I get frustrated, the problem tends to be something that I missed while doing the basics. I'm not too familiar with the KNF process but I found a scholarly article from the University of Hawaii that seems to break down the basics. Maybe another view would maybe give you some ideas?

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-17.pdf

I'm just starting into chickens so I'll do a bit of a deeper dive as I have time.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the link!  I will read it today.

What part of NY are you in?  I was born and raised in NYC, and spent 2 years in Glens Falls.  Now I live in San Francisco.

So when it comes to KNF you can follow the recipe exactly but because of everyone individual climate is different in small ways so there will be variations. We understand that to maintain microbial activity that we need a bit of moisture so if its covering the material soy have less moisture loss perhaps.  could also inoculate the bedding or take it an ferment it in a barrel then use that almost like a bokashi sprinkle on top. I hope you were able to figure it out. Just remember what Chris trump says about not having to be exact, same with his son when he teaches. some things while measured in the recipes, yes, but there is flexibility in the material you can used. Also may be able to check out @Risingmoon medicinals out of Michigan he does KNF composting feeding the chickens hemp stalks.

Welcome to Permies Grant!

Grant Mulkey wrote:So when it comes to KNF you can follow the recipe exactly but because of everyone individual climate is different in small ways so there will be variations. We understand that to maintain microbial activity that we need a bit of moisture so if its covering the material soy have less moisture loss perhaps.

Hi Grant,
It took a lot of experimentation, but I think I've got it working now.   It's more work than everyone says it is, but it seems to be worth it in the end.  I ended up adding a lot more hemp hurd, to a depth of about 8".  It ended up being a lady on YouTube who helped the most!  Her video was on deep litter for chickens.  I wrote to her and told her my theory that you need moisture to decompose anything, and she said I was absolutely right.  Her phrase, "It should feel and smell like the forest floor" was what really made it click for me.  Just very slightly moist.  

So now, when I start to see too much poop lying around, I water it, then spray with more IMO, fluff, and add another inch on top, so they have a dry layer.  I do occasionally get a slight ammonia smell the next day, if I've let it go too long, but the day after, it's gone.  If I stick my hand down into it, it will be warm for several days after watering.  I'm seeing way less poop just sitting there now.  I also occasionally just spray more IMO.

Oddly enough, I've only had to water the quail pen once, and both were started at the same time.   Strange.