Self-sufficient in a Zombie Apocalypse

Spencer Miles wrote:I feel compelled to remark upon the direction that the discussion has taken, as well as to point out a humorous, macabre irony.

Zombies - I prefer "zommies" 'cause it's more fun to say.

Community. Community, Community, COMMUNITY!!!

:)

Let it be known that community, nations, groups of people are more capable of creating crazy thoughts than a single man.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.  - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nicole, Don't be put off by the bones.  They are a good source of calcium.  I just smash them with a fork and you never know they are there.  Sometimes there is also skin.  I don't really like that if there is a lot but mash it up also.

I got my recipe from a lady that I worked with years ago.  Take saltine crackers and crush, then add the contents of the can, juice and all.  You can also add a beaten raw egg. You want the patties to be stiff.  I never add anything else though what you added sounds good.  Then fry on both sides until golden.  I sometimes roll mine in flour before frying if they are not as stiff as I like.

I am hearing alot of people saying that to survive the ZA, it would be best if to find or create a community of self-sufficient people if we want to survive. So that we have some equal partners to support us and trade with us, Because if I am the only person out of 30,000 people that have food/water/light at night, I will surely be over run no matter how much bullets and food that I have.

But if we are in a community where everyone have their own water/food/etc, things will be better, and then I or my neighbor want some variety to spice up life, then I might trade my delicious almond nuts for some corn that didn't do too well for me this season.


So my list is now.
Knowledge (permies.com, books, etc)
Experience (start living a self-sufficient lifestyle now, with a bit of regular centralized stuff from time to time)
Security (hide away in my private hidden underground bunker, with mines, traps, guns, etc ready to kill intruders)
Community (join/create a group of like minded people who are also self-sufficient that I can trade with for variety)
Monopoly (and lastly offer a service/good that is in high demand, healthcare is a good one...emotional/mental/spiritual=drugs/counseling and physical/medical=surgery skills or herbal medicine or bio-mechanical counselling/service)

Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

If someone thinks murdering your neighbors so you can steal their stuff is "moral" then I don't think they have a good understanding of the word. However you can be sure LOTS of people will find reasons to "justify" robbing and even killing their neighbors.

Having said that, in a serious long term shtf situation the standards for justifiable homicide will drastically change (unless you are in Texas, then it stays about the same).  Theft and the like will probably be a capital offense simply because a) stealing someone's food/supplies can be the same as killing them and b) no one will have the time/energy/resources to incarcerate criminals.

S Bengi wrote:I am hearing alot of people saying that to survive the ZA, it would be best if to find or create a community of self-sufficient people if we want to survive. So that we have some equal partners to support us and trade with us, Because if I am the only person out of 30,000 people that have food/water/light at night, I will surely be over run no matter how much bullets and food that I have.

But if we are in a community where everyone have their own water/food/etc, things will be better, and then I or my neighbor want some variety to spice up life, then I might trade my delicious almond nuts for some corn that didn't do too well for me this season.

The community thing is a problem for many.

You either move to an area where the neighbors are already homesteading/ranching and are probably somewhat prepared or you join a group that has a pre-stocked location. There are also small communities you can join but it takes resources (i.e. money to build a cabin, bring a years worth of supplies etc...) and many are either religious groups or para-military. Or you could move to a small Mormon town in Utah, devout Mormons are required to prep and most are also well armed. Course if you don't convert you will be an "outsider" but at least they won't get desperate and try to rob you or eat you.

Many of us are embedded in our current location because of our animals or gardens so our ability to hook up with other geographically close individuals is slim to none. That may not be ideal but we just have to do the best we can. Realistically if you can hunker down and take care of yourself for a month or two you will survive the vast majority disasters.

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

If someone thinks murdering your neighbors so you can steal their stuff is "moral" then I don't think they have a good understanding of the word. However you can be sure LOTS of people will find reasons to "justify" robbing and even killing their neighbors.

Having said that, in a serious long term shtf situation the standards for justifiable homicide will drastically change (unless you are in Texas, then it stays about the same).  Theft and the like will probably be a capital offense simply because a) stealing someone's food/supplies can be the same as killing them and b) no one will have the time/energy/resources to incarcerate criminals.

I agree with what you said, especially that last bit that I bolded.  It will be like in the Old West when they hung horse thieves, because stealing a man's horse and leaving him on foot was for all practical purposes murder.

Kathleen

I always try mine out immediately. Lost a few due to freezing. Nothing visible, I just don't trust them after they have been frozen.

Squeeze

From the Sawyer website FAQ ...

How do I care for my filter during freezing weather?
Before initial wetting

Filter is safe from freezing temperatures if it has never been wetted.
After initial wetting

While there is no definitive way to tell if a filter has been damaged due to freezing, Sawyer recommends replacing your filter if you suspect that it has been frozen.
During trips if you are in freezing temperatures, we recommend that you store your filter in your pocket or close to your person so that your body heat can prevent freezing. THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR A FROZEN FILTER.

Mike Barkley wrote:I always try mine out immediately. Lost a few due to freezing. Nothing visible, I just don't trust them after they have been frozen.

Ahhh....good. Mine has never been used (one of the few times being lazy and NOT testing equipment has paid off!)

If I knew how to give out an apple I would. Thanks.

I gave Mike an apple (one has to be a pollinator, gardener, or steward to give out apples). I'm also happy to know that my not-yet-used water filters won't break when frozen!

Michael Moreken wrote:

Spencer Miles wrote:I feel compelled to remark upon the direction that the discussion has taken, as well as to point out a humorous, macabre irony.

Zombies - I prefer "zommies" 'cause it's more fun to say.

Community. Community, Community, COMMUNITY!!!

:)

Let it be known that community, nations, groups of people are more capable of creating crazy thoughts than a single man.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.  - Friedrich Nietzsche

I best practice might try to lie low, stay out of spotlights.

Thank you Mike Barkley!!
With the way the weather has been running, I'm VERY glad to know the water filter in my truck won't break. I too, am lazy and have not tested that one. I use the Berkey in the house, and keep water bottles full of that water in the truck, so that's my primary water, and I have never had to use my Sawyers.

As far as the zombie apocalypse in general, I'm going for the "hunker down" theory. due to health reasons I'm used to being alone for long amounts of time, and doubt I'd freak out at aloneness. It seems to me ma lot of people have a major problem psychologically with being alone, and that may get them in trouble..

For me, I look at how toxic and polluted and nonsustaining to life our planet is becoming, and  just how many fossil fuels and environmental destruction (and human suffering) is involved in the mining of metals for things like solar panels and cellphones. This makes me think that preparing for the "Zombie Apocalypse" looks like:

Growing a diverse assortment of things that can survive extreme weather and climate changes,

Using and buying a whole lot less. I don't need it, and I need to get used to not having it

Getting better at growing food and raising animals so more things can be harvested from my own land without needing to rely on the fossil fuels, environmental degredation, and unjust working conditions that come with so many products and food purchased in the store

having enough food to get through 1 or 2 winters in case enough food can't be grown/stored. I don't see much purpose in having more food stashed than that. If I can't get enough food grown by then, then I'm probably not going to be able to survive

getting good tools (wheel barrows, shovels, machetes, pruning shears, pitch forks, rakes, reel lawn mowers and scythes, etc) and learning how to sharpen and maintain and fix them.

Also, become friends and help out your neighbors. They're probably great people and worth getting to know, and the more self-sustaining everyone is, the more we can help each other, not just with supplies, but with emotional support and fresh ideas for how to do things. Neighbors are invaluable and worth far more than a years worth of dehydrated food or ammo.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Terri Matthews wrote:some buckets of grain.

I bought a bunch of dry beans and rice that we never ate.  The beans got so old they wouldn't even sprout when I finally threw them into the garden.  So my suggestion is to store food you actually eat and eat it regularly, rotating it to keep the supply as fresh as possible.  Otherwise you might just waste a bunch of money like I did.

We never did like to eat dry beans.

Store what you eat; eat what you store.

We are prepared and always have a good stock of food on hand. If you live in a temperate climate and endeavor to raise much of your food, you are probably going to have about a 1 year supply of food to get from one harvest to the next. We store what we eat, and eat what we store.

When I put up apple butter and apple sauce and dry apples, I want enough to last until next apple harvest.

That said, I am quite passionate about sourdough. And we do not attempt to raise wheat here. Our climate is not ideal for growing a good bread flour anyway, as it is too humid and too rainy here for good bread flour wheat. So, I order fairly large orders of organic bread flour from my favorite supplier, usually twice per year.

And for other items we don’t produce, I buy those and always have a good stock of them. I save money by waiting for sales and buying them in quantity. But again, I am storing what we eat, not foods that we won’t enjoy. After all, if I don’t like them NOW, why would I like them during some future crisis? During a crisis, I am not going to be happy suddenly changing my diet to things I hate.

I think our main crisis is already at hand: climate change. To prep for that I am trying to have great redundancy in my crops - I have 12 different species of fruits, for example. That way, if one type of tree or shrub or plant can no longer thrive here, hopefully others will continue growing.

There are a few simple rules

Don't be in a city or large town.
Know your neighbors.
Be well armed and hopefully have military friends or training.
Ensure only rational thinkers have any political power in your group, you don't want people trying to let in zombie refugees.
Learn how to cook zombies so they taste good.


Everything else will fall into place.

I've been a bit of a prepper, read a few survivalist books and been on survivalist forums for well over 15 years and the best scenario is a few or several families that will work together. One man with his wife and kids, the odds aren't good because there will be hordes of desperate people and they will take what you have. There also will be, um, uninhibited people for lack of better phrasing. When there's no rules or at least no one to enforce them, people will act on their worst impulses. Have you seen the movie The Road?

Water. In case of aquifers running hundreds of feet below surface, how to get it without electricity (Springs and rainwater - see below)
Grow food. There's only so much canned food you can store (don't forget winter - need to preserve what you grow)
Cooking. I really like rocket oven. But anything else? (Wood stove, dutch oven, clay oven, solar oven, thermos cooking)
Maybe electricity? In case of a nuclear war/asteroid strike/volcanic eruptions it will most likely result in a long nuclear/impact/volcanic winter in which case solar panels will be useless. But do you even need electricity? (Sure is nice and solar will survive some situations - even a small 12vdc set up for LED lighting is nice btdt)
Air conditioning in high humidity and temps over 100 during the day and around 80 during the night. (well if you don't have electricity... - Actually we survived two heat waves with humid, over 100 degrees - miserable but we lived)
Heating in the winter. I like that rocket heater doesn't produce smoke and so it doesn't attract attention from miles away. (overrated imho - the equivalent of having a warm rock in the room - get a small efficient woodstove with a flat top you can cook on - have extra stove pipe in stock)
Hygiene (overrated in a strictly survival situation - if you have the water, go for it but if you're toting water by hand then sponge bath as needed, where needed)
Entertainment (shooting zombies of course - cards, boards games but mostly you'll be working)
Animals? How many chickens can you raise with paddock shift design? In case of nuclear/impact/volcanic winter? (rabbits are quiet and don't take up much room - you need added fat though)
Root cellar that doubles as shelter in case of war/natural disaster? (kinda different as root cellars are a bit moist to live in - could build them together with a wall between - dirt floor for root cellar, concrete for shelter - 3 foot of soil over you and hepa filters for fallout)
Rain water collection (well not if nuclear fallout but in all other cases)
Radioactivity testing? Heavy metal testing? When you're on your own, you don't have access to these things probably unless you prepare beforehand. (they can be had - oh, look into iodide pills)
Lamps for growing food in case of impact/nuclear/volcanic winter? Then you'll need electricity. LOTS of electricity. I'm guessing building a sizeable green house. (store 2 years of food - look at wheat kernels - rice - beans)
How to harvest wind power? (wind is not very good alt energy in most places but pumping water to cistern like Amish is good)
Alternative fuel for your car? Diesel? You can make a fortune selling it to others I presume. (car in zombie apocalypse? maybe a little diesel tractor or draft animals)
They say it takes a football field worth of garden to feed one person for a year. Can you squeeze that into a much smaller space? A food forest where food grows vertically?
How to obtain salt? (it's cheap and lasts forever - 5 gal buckets and use food grade desiccant -sugar too)
Anything else I didn't mention? (foraging - learn the wild edibles in your area)(clothing, shoes, hand tools, weapons, animal feed, ham radio, toilet paper, soap, medicine - pretty much all the stuff you use now but a year's worth, plus some other things)
Eat bugs? Which bugs? How to grow them? How to cook them? I mean if you're hungry I guess you lower your "ew" threshold. (I think most are edible but I don't know if I could - maybe mash them up in something else)
In case of a nuclear war, can you keep bees underground?

People have been prepping since the cold war, yet here we are and people have been worried about various presidents for a couple of centuries, yet here we are.

It does give you peace of mind being prepped even just food for just a few months. Extreme, yet normal weather events can make you stuck for a while. I've been through a blizzard in MA and hurricane in FL that kept us at home for a couple of weeks and they have ice storms here in MO that can do the same. We moved half way across the country, on a low budget, knowing we'd be off grid and knowing we'd be looking for property a while and not fully knowing the income situation. We brought 4-500 lbs of food with us with a lot of the weight being salt, sugar, beans and rice. I still have some of the salt and it's pretty solid but still salt. I had a Sam's membership so we got 50 lb bags for 10-15 bucks. Salt will preserve/cure stuff, salt+sugar will do the same and taste a lot better. Flour is only good for a year but wheat kernels last for eons. You just need a way to grind them. Pasta lasts years. Dry beans will be hard to get them to soften up once they're a year or two old. If they're still viable though you can sprout them and eat sprouts. That food we brought saved our asses as did the 12vdc fridge powered by 300 watts of solar since we had young uns that needed their milk.

Look into ceramic water filters. Big berkey type gravity feed filters and two 5 gallon buckets and a spigot. Doulton and Katadyn are the two best names and you can find videos on how to set things up. Here's some filter cartridges - https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=doulton+Super+Sterasyl

You can see the cartridges and spigot etc here - https://www.katadyn.com/us/us/254-2110080-katadyn-drip-gravidyn
Here's Doulton https://doulton.com/product/atc-super-sterasyl/

We drank water from a creek for 6 months. It was spring fed but still ground water as the spring was a 1/4 mile away. Those ceramic filters will remove giardia, cryptosporidium, protozoa and I think some will do listeria but that one's rare. They also make them that will remove other nasties so do your research.

I have not read through all of the answers(only those with apples), because i feel the quesion is ill-stated.

It should be more like:
"Which roles should be filled by the members of our group in order to survive the zombie apocalypse."

I think we all know that you can buy/prepare whatever and how munch you want,
if you are alone you will still be overrun by zombies or non-friendly survivors.
(Those solar panels on your roof probably attract the later ones)
In the best case you grow too old to defend/feed yourself.

So the only option is a community of people. And if you want to be able to maintain
a certain level of technology/knowlede/comfort you need those people to be specialised
in certain roles.

Such a community does not have to live together during pre-apocalypse time,
but it surely helps to have some common project beforehand.
A cooperative farm comes to my mind as a good starting point:

I'm growing lots of Alliums....zombies hate them.  Or is that vampires....dang it.

While I used to find it a lot of fun to imagine all the ways I’d need to learn and know to survive a major devastation, at 65, I am now inclined toward “oh, just take me out now and let me go in peace”. I am not inclined to fight off “hordes” of humans. Zombies maybe, if they’re the slow and stupid ones and not the running, climbing, clever ones.

But if I’m going to need radioactivity counters and worry that I might become my community’s next meal, then I’m out.

If everyone else was pretty much gone, isolation does not bother me in the slightest. I actually COULD be the last person on earth comfortably and sanely.

So barring a Mad Max world, fast zombies, and Soylent Green, I feel well prepared for the normal things such as major job loss and also larger things such as another Great Depression or war. I’m not a doomer in the sense that I feel inclined to prepare to the ‘nth degree for it because mostly I’m just too old to care about surviving absolute devastation, but I think I am a doomer in that I believe it is inevitable - in my life or soon thereafter.

No empire lasts forever. The world has seen massive political and religious structural changes since the beginning of man. It’s not “if” but when. And when is ALWAYS. Being comfortable now is no indication that we have evolved beyond that cycle of destruction and restructuring. It’s a given, IMHO.

Also, humans used to simply relocate when natural and cyclical changes in weather patterns occurred (ice age, massive droughts, volcanic activity), sometimes migrating en masse. Some we see coming because they happen incrementally over decades, and some happen in hours. But land ownership has pretty much killed off our natural lives and we can’t migrate to better hunting grounds so now we complain instead about earth's weather changes.

And that’s kind of how I have learned to prepare: what did folks do before? What did early man do? How was this done in medieval times? How did colonists in the New World survive once they left a community and settled in the wilds of Kentucky? How do you fish without a modern fishing pole? How do you trap, skin, and eat squirrel? How do you just live?

That doesn’t mean I don’t have food put by. I dehydrate everything, and mostly by the wood stove so it’s doable most of the year and the sun and air can do a good deal in summer (if it’s not too humid). I do think you have to know how to live without modern convenience because we might have to again.

I don’t garden. Hate it, I'm a natural plant-killer, and after 6 years of failure because we’re too wooded and shady, I started planting seeds and starts from fields around me: native foods abound in the yard now without any help from me and we already had nut and fruit trees.

We’re in a small town, in a house on the edge that was built room-by-room so it’s a maze of doors and windows. We would not be able to defend it all alone. But if we had to hunker down in it, we’d be fine. We eat simply and not a flour-based diet because I’m not a bread-y person and tubers and roots have more nutrition. Flour and white rice have almost ZERO nutrition and I would not try to survive on them. I don’t store them. I do store a lot of dried potatoes and other roots and tubers, cornmeal, and oats. But even the grains aren’t the slightest essential in the human diet. But I know it will extend greatly our capacity to feed ourselves longer-term and I do like them. So my food storage is aimed at the most nutrient dense foods, not necessarily the cheapest, easiest to buy and put away: potatoes and other roots and tubers, greens and some veg, mushrooms, fruit and tomatoes, nuts and seeds, eggs and meat, fats and salt. And tea and chocolate. If I can get a dairy animal, I would like that also.

I don’t need electricity. Our mudroom can be converted into a small animal shelter/coop for the chickens and small animals, if necessary. As long as I can get outside and collect food, I can eat it and not touch our stores. Not a huge amount of variety by modern standards, but guess what? A human can live just fine on nettles, dandelion, roots and tubers, and meat/eggs for a long time and probably be healthier than most people today and you feel full after eating much less food because you are actually being nourished with much less food. What I have stored in larger quantities is salt and fats. Those will be harder to produce.

I have made all my own medicines from plants for 45+ years. I bought or grew the exotic ones to battle things like smallpox or Marburgs and such to have on hand. I don’t think people know much about the heavy-hitters when they talk about herbalism in the homesteading and prepping community. Growing lemon balm and yarrow are great, but what are you going to do when you need pleurisy root or pitcher plant?

I’m just thinking that self-sufficiency may not be about being prepared with all systems intact as much as knowing how to live on the planet regardless: how to find food and prepare it, how to live without running water, electricity, communication tools, what plants help fight off the worst bacteria and viruses that can be released. Basically, how to live historically, the way humans have until the mass movement to cities the last couple of hundred years.

I never had a cell phone. I am not an instant person. My phone hardly ever rings and I’m not often anywhere near it to hear it when someone has tried to call me. I know how to make a good stew out of just about any root, green, and meat. I don’t need variety; my food is not entertainment. I am perfectly happy to daydream if there is absolutely nothing to do and watching nature is already an endlessly fascinating way to pass the time. I’ve stockpiled as much literature as food probably. A field, a pantry, and a library and I'm good to go.

I’m thinking Great Depression or war maybe.  And I grew up with people who lived through those and taught me how to live so I’m ready already because that’s how I live. Without plastic garbage bags and cling wrap and a dozen cleaning products and such. Never did those anyway.

I am of a conviction making yourself indispensable would be as critical as having enough food and water.  I am that, but, for the most part, only if we still had electric power.

That aside, it remains we have laws because there are many who will do evil. And, when times get rough enough, even otherwise good people will do bad things. As such, might is a pretty important part of the survival equation too.

 

Nick Kitchener wrote:Personally, I think you are asking the wrong question because it drives you to a set of solutions that are all inherently flawed in that under a ZA scenario might is right.

Maybe a better question would be "In the event of a zombie apocalypse, what can I do to make me and my family indispensable?". . . .

Tatiana,

Roberto, Nicole, Sonja and all of the others have already said my advice for you. But I will give you my thoughts on the issue at hand.

The very first thing you need to do is buy 4 acres surrounding you. To me, 1 acre isn't enough space for a long-term stand off.

Next is buy stock in a fencing company then buy a 12 ft high fence all around your land. You know, for the zombies! Ha ha ha.But for a prepared readiness situation, fencing is a mandatory item.

Next is look into vertical farming. The subject is a popular topic and there are people in city shapes that produce a lot of vegetables and fruits. A good start would be to get a 20 or 40 ft shipping container the convert it to a vertical garden. Even if the apocalypse doesn't happen, you can easily sell your crops at farmers markets.

Next is to look into sustainable energy production. Best case is solar paired with wind turbine(s). Put solar panels on every south facing rooftops and get tied back on the the grid. You can literally sell power to your local electric company and I'm pretty sure they have to take it, according to the law. Make sure to have a good battery system for when your power goes out.

And lastly, join a co-operative group of like minded people. And if there isn't a group, form one. They are a significant lifeline, apocalypse or not. They become a barter source, friend(s), knowledge source, partners, etc. And if there isn't an apocalypse (most likely), you have a group of like minded people.

Good luck!
Hoppy

Kelly Craig wrote:
That aside, it remains we have laws because there are many who will do evil. And, when times get rough enough, even otherwise good people will do bad things. As such, might is a pretty important part of the survival equation too.

Kelly,
Suddenly bad events, like the ones that cause societal breakdowns, illustrate that the real purpose of laws in modern societies is to protect evil doers. Evil doers at every level.

As soon as authorities are unable to respond and the decent people realize that they are no longer shackled by authoritative consequences,  the evil doers get wiped out by cooperative and disciplined decent people seizing the initiative.  That's curtains for your stereotypical movie mad max gangs, bandits, and roving predators.  Further,  without the structure and protection  of the law the political tyrants, institutional bullies, social parasites and cultists who make up the more formidable body of evil doers cannot ply their trade in misery.

You'll always have busy body traitors that will be keeping notes on the activities of their neighbors for eventually betraying them if/when the authorities return, and some smooth brains screaming that mercy and tolerance are the best responses to zombies. Those are both more dangerous than bandits, because the enemy inside your area of control  is always more dangerous than ones outside. They should be treated as such in a zombie apocalypse.

I like your point about might.  Allow me to add that in the modern western era, there are only two types of effective might. Number one is devastating and merciless surprise at an enemies physical and psychological weak points. Number two is aimed rifle fire.  Proper application of those can turn any zombie apocalypse into a pastural permaculture scenario.

Well, my land is starting to be overrun with cow parsnip and bracken ferns, so I better get back to permi'ing.

Take care!

I do not see much value in planning for low likelihood extremely sub-optimal scenarios, like having to murder my neighbors to survive in a miserable situation. I see more value in planning for abundance and practicing generosity, as this creates resilience and security. I also believe math applies to me just like everyone else, so I do not accumulate items more likely to kill me or those I love than any speculative “evil doers”. I am not a pacifist and know martial arts, but I am unlikely to accidentally kill myself or someone I care about with karate.

i think the most valuable things in any kind of nightmare situ being discussed -- the most important things are not things, but internal circumstances.
inner strength, true empowerment -- power with, not power over -- focussing on the good for the whole, instead of oneself, a sense of inner security and inner peace, acceptance of even the most difficult things and willingness to keep on pushing through that.
also knowledge - all the sorts of things we talk about here - how to fish, how to build, how to forage, how to farm, etc etc theres a lot to know in this space. but this sort of stuff can lead to the above.
but this kind of knowledge is infinitely more valuable in these zombie apocalypse/SHTF/ EOTWAWKI  scenarios, than a huge list of material things and supplies

also theres a weird kind of strength that comes from having lived through a bunch of sh!t and gotten through it. its not some....idealistic sense of strength, a naive type of strength, its much darker than that. its i got through all this sh!t -so bring it on universe - kinda of real strength.

in growing awareness -- there is a big shift i think that can happen for a person when they become more aware to what i will call "real reality" - and this can quickly spin a person into being really freaked out. we are spinning around in space on spaceship earth, a tumultuous super organism with immense beauty and power, and darkness and loss,life and death and the fear of losing your only bones. its both amazingly beautiful and terrifyingly horrible.
ah idk i just see thats part of the prepper phases people go through - i think it is set off by a growing in awareness. and that awareness brings up all the uncertainty and fear and really sinks in just how precarious this whole thing really is. especially for those who have lived very sheltered lives, they grow somewhat blind to certain realities, having not experienced them themselves, and just not being able to break out of whatever confines and comfort zones are presented, say if you grow up in the relative comfort of first world abundance and affluence especially.
so i try to have compassion for those who may be in those types of phases, because ultimately they are the ones being conned, IMO obviously, they are being wronged, being force fed all sort of harmful and regressive ideologies and dont question it. they parrot their brainwashing and dont question their privilege, and how acclimated they are as tame pets.
ok i may be on the verge of ruffling some feathers here, but this is how i see things. people are taught wrong, with bad programming,
society values the wrong things, and turns people into borderline sociopaths, and thats all been normalized with so many false narratives. theres a bug in the code of eurocentric civilations, the ideaologies which have been handed down to us, the default operating system of the collective culture!

breaking free from that stuff, if you start hacking the code, hacking your own brain! i think this leads to growing awareness, and though not all lessons need to come from pain and loss and being without, there are very valuable and harsh lessons that can bring greater and greater awareness, and this about where youre average prepper is at- in their expanding awareness, they go through a huge fear response to this....seeing beyond the comfy confines of being sheltered and indoctrinated into these unhealthy cultures.

but the trick is to keep growing through that -- to get beyond that where youve sort of accepted it, as much as it can be accepted -- that all sorts of crazy difficult things can and will happen and theres very little you can do about it as tiny little speck of beingness-  -- just try to do the best you can in your little way, inch along and gain skills, be good family to the extended family of not just the human community even with all of its dysfunction and darkness, but the greater super organism and all the beings that make up that super organism.

I haven't read the full thread, so bear with me, but these are my thoughts.....

Regarding prepping, i'm of the mindset that prepping isn't a long term solution. I'm prepped for a couple months. If something lasts longer than that, it's probably going to last a long time. Nobody can realistically keep enough supplies on hand to last a lifetime, nor should it be necessary. These supplies are just there to ease the transition into living a life without modern amenities. For example, I have some batteries and candles, but I don't plan on providing light for myself for the rest of my life if the zombie apocalypse comes. I plan on simply living without lighting besides what the sun provides Sure, I could buy solar panels or a wind turbine or a generator, but what happens when that breaks? Am I gonna keep a lifetime of replacement parts on hand too?

Regarding good people turning evil-there will certainly be some of that. But there will also be people who are willing to do rough things to survive and provide. As an example....I don't want to kill anyone in the zombie apocalypse, and I plan on being able to provide food for my family. But, I'm perfectly willing and able to feed your kids to my kids, if that's what it takes to provide. And, I know that other parents will be willing to feed my children to their children in order to survive, and I'm prepared to prevent such things. That's just the nature of the zombie apocalypse, and those who aren't willing to accept such things will just get eaten by those who are hungry.

Chris Kott wrote:Prepper culture is fear-based, and it spreads by compounding people's fears. If you feed it, it will surely grow.

Steve Shelton wrote:For me, prepping is a method to displace fear.

I don't think prepping is fear based, in fact like Steve suggests it's a way to get rid of fear. Essentially every homesteader is a prepper. You can't run to town every time you need something. Homesteaders stock up, can, store, make due, recycle, etc... An important thing for a homesteader is their "junk pile", it's were they store a lot of stuff that can be made into something else with a little creativity. Would it be easier to buy instead of making, yep, but it could take days to get to you while making it means it is there as soon as you finish.

Now as for "self sufficiency" I would say it's a myth. You can't get by on your own. Even primitive man needed community to survive. You could lower your wants to more needs, but you will never be able to do it by yourself.

I would suggest you make connections with like minded folks now. Even some unlike minded people who will be around afterwards. You don't want an echo chamber of the same thoughts.

BTW I'm a prepper, bushcrafter, homesteader, and permaculturist. To my thinking Prepping can lead to these other things pretty easily as you look at developing skills that can improve you odds.

I see these posts are from 5+ years ago.
I wonder if any of the Posters’ opinions have changed after living through the Great toilet paper shortage of 2022.

My thoughts on the subject of preparing:
People ignore the middle ground, in favor of the extremes;
There is a big gulf between doing nothing and burying a 40 foot Connex container full of rice, beans, and ammo.

I have always thought that if you have reasonable means the minimum you should do is stock enough food to feed your family for two weeks.
Add enough water for a week if treatable water is abundant in your area 2 weeks if it is not.
Some way to cook without broadcasting to the world you are doing it.
Example:
20 lbs beans,  50 lbs rice, 10 lbs textured soy protein  <$200
Sealed in 5 gallon bucket with O2 absorbers (another $75.00) 20 year shelf life.
If you have the cash some canned meat you actually like to eat so it can be rotated or freeze dried meat

This could be done in phase to spread out cost. If you or a friend works in food service you can probably get the buckets for free.

Above is “low middle ground” that will get you through most natural or man made disasters.
If disaster is long term (as in zombie apocalypse) it would keep you alive while you figure out how you’re going to live long-term.

On the uphill side of middle ground I like 3 months of food.
An alternative way to heat your house.
An established garden site.
Some security.
Improve your water plan.
Lighting.

You should also practice with your preps:
Can you cook rice any other way than a rice cooker? Give it a try on your camp stove or Rocket.
If beans are not a normal part of your diet, how many days in a row can you eat them? 3 for me, definitely not 4…
How much fuel of your choice does it take to cook a meal or boil water?
How long does your candles last or the kerosene in your lamp?

Ultimately we are responsible for our own well being.
I for one will not put my families’ well being in the hands of the same organization that runs the DMV.

Probably the best plan is to be living a resilient life that requires few outside inputs to keep your homestead running.

Food, shelter, & water. Everything else is just gravy. One could spend a lifetime acquiring the skills & knowledge to make sure they always have that under any circumstances. I would add first aid because sooner or later someone will get sick or hurt. The ability to avoid or repel the zombies seems wise too. A zillion years ago I was deep deep deep in the military. The thing that kept me going was to accept the fact that I was already dead. It gives one the ability to function under extreme circumstances. Life will never be the same after zombies.

Mike Barkley wrote:Food, shelter, & water. Everything else is just gravy.  

Food, shelter, water, ... and agency. The gut-level belief that you can do something, take some action, however small, to assert some control and improve your circumstances.

Survival psychology is a very real thing, and there is documentation of these events. Some people just freeze up, give up, shut down, and choose not to act -- even when others are in their faces and trying to force them off the sinking ship and into the lifeboat.

Hi Douglas,

Great observation.  The issue of external vs internal locus of control impacts many aspects of life.  If we wait until “they” do something….well , we could be waiting a very long time.

Even as a counselor I had underestimated the importance of locus of control in every day life. Back in the 90s I was in a conversation with a woman who was asking me about homesteading.  This was a reasonably well educated …well employed person. She was clearly “not getting it”.   The pieces fell into place when she asked me “Who gave you permission?”    Of course, I immediately went into counselor mode and attempted to introduce her to the idea that the world had more possibilities than she ever imagined.