Henry Coulson

Hey Matias

I had a quick look at the links that you attached, and he seems like an interesting fellow. Would be keen to have a chat with him. I actually knew a Finnish guy from Turku. He was a crazy cat, but that is another story for another day.

I did try and get a good way into the back end of a Permaculture simulator, and it got messy real fast. There is almost no data on useful information regarding which plants prefer which soil types, water diffusion rates in soil etc.
I did consider making a small game, but it would be a bit of a lie to call anything I can make at this point a "simulation". The project for me is currently sitting around number 5 on the list of priorities for me in life. So unless there is someone (possibly your friend) who wanted to work on it with me, it is likely to remain a low priority

But, yeah, by all means I would be keen to get in touch. PM me if you want to.

Hi Mikesh,

Hey another Kiwi! I am sorry to say that in all of my scouting, there is not a Permaculture game around yet (that I know of, at least) and there might not be one for a while. (Unless someone makes one before I do, and I hope that happens so I can buy it, and go on living my life.)
I have been in touch with a few programmers from overseas who are making earnest footsteps in that direction as well. But none from New Zealand.
If you know of any programmers who might be interested in helping or giving advice, then I would certainly be interested.

Cheers,

Henry

P.S. Interesting fact, the guy who made the New Zealand Permaculture page on Facebook lives down the road from me. His lawns are all gardens.

Hello Bernetta,

what are the basics of the game?

The synopsis is basically a tool which the user can muck about with, and experiment with ideas that they may have seen in the permaculture space.
How this manifests is that the user is presented with a blank slate of land (can choose different climate zones) whereupon they can raise garden beds, experiment with digging methods, put swales up on contour, etc. I was also envisaging (in future iterations) that permaculture designers might be able to import a terrain scan from google maps of their land, and get an instant contour profile of their land. From there, they can begin to design different features, run experiments and try things out, potentially saving a lot of time that might otherwise be wasted.

what is the end goal? how would one get from start to finish?

In real life, there is no end, it just keeps going on, but I understand that in games, being goal oriented is key. So besides a sandbox mode (user gets all the equipment and time they need to design whatever they want to) a realistic mode (where doing things like digging, ploughing, putting up fences cost time and or money) I was thinking perhaps a campaign mode, where you play a budding Permaculture designer, tasked with improving the land of various areas, until you are essentially greening the desert.

what type of game would it be?

rpg, crafter type (minecraft)...ect.

It would look, at first glance to be a strategy game (i.e. top down view, where you can place buildings/cultivate areas, like a omnipotent deity) However, I would REALLY like to also have a first person mode, so the player can walk among the orchards and fields they have planted. However, I would imagine it would look similar to a sim-city type experience for most of it.

does the player start with an empty lot of land and then build up? if so what and how does one obtain the needed items?

As above, there could be several modes. I have imagined that the project start more as a game. This is easier to accomplish than a full blown simulation, and a good starting point. However, as the project progresses, and more features are added, it should lean more towards "simulation" rather than a game. I would like for the player to be able to input the amount of time and money they have for the week, and then they would be able to see what they could get done on their lifestyle block/homestead (If I am not mistaken on the definition, in NZ we call homesteads: "lifestyle blocks").

I used to help with online world building type of forum games...lol

Cool, sounds interesting. What have you worked on? Would you happen to have any examples?

Nota Bene:

I am not so attached to the above ideas that I couldn't be persuaded away from them. This is just what I am aiming towards. I am happy to receive other peoples ideas and visions.

Even in a game form, this will take a lot of work, so it might be a while before something comes up.

Hope I answered all of your points satisfactorily, let me know if you have any further points/questions

Cheers,

Henry

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the advice, it is useful, and I will consider it. I guess what I was trying to do here (but perhaps didn't enunciate all that well) is to get a feel for who is is interested in developing some sort of game at this point. Doesn't have to be my own special project, or whatever I don't really care. But there seems to be a real level of demand for something like this, which isn't being met. If someone out there is interested in front end development, or has had some experience, then I guess I would be interested more than anything else at this point. It is still early days.

Part of the reason that there is no code up on github/gitlab etc. is that I have been working in Unity mostly. As you may or may not know, Unity and Git mix like oil and water. Unity Collaborate is what is usually used, and the free version only allows for up to 3 developers.

I will try and see if I can make progress on the code front, and get something to show within the next few days.

Cheers,

Henry

Hi Andrew,

Yeah, so I sent off an email to you. You are right, the complexity is immense here, and I have some plans as to how to go about tackling it. But I think that it will be necessary to get a band of programmers together to tackle this.

Cheers,
Henry

Hello and Greetings from New Zealand,

I am currently working on a permaculture/agroecology game/simulator. (What to formally name it escapes me for the time being) Given the number of failed attempts at undertaking this venture, and given how little I actually enjoy working regular hours, I decided to quit my job to work on this full time.
And full time work it certainly is. Too much work for one person to complete within a sensible time-frame.

So to that end, I was wondering if anyone out there has had some experience in programming with Unity. I say Unity at this point due to the documentation, cost, and the asset store, but if someone else has a better idea, then I am all ears.

Looking at the back-end (soil science, plant interactions etc.) is more interesting from my perspective coming from a maths and science background, so I am currently getting stuck into that.

I was thinking of monetizing this on a platform like steam, but being poor, and having to save money, means that I am not in a position to offer proper wages. However, I was thinking that I will give part of profits (perhaps based on total hours worked as a fraction) to any people who help out in a meaningful way.

But such details as these can be thrashed out later. In the meantime, is there anyone out there who is interested?

Kind Regards,

Henry

P.S.: if this post is in the wrong part of permies, or there is something else amiss, please do let me know, so I can rectify the problem.

Hi All,

So over a year later, and I have had to quit my job to actually start work on this. (It seems to be a pretty enormous task, actually).
Progress is slow, as at the moment, I am the only one working on this. However, there seems to be quite the variety of threads started regarding a Permaculture game, and it seems that all of them have perished in their quest. However, I suspect the people who started those threads are still interested in completing the task, so I might reach out to them and see if they are interested in banding together.

The first problem immediately apparent is the lack of usable data out there on what crops work well under what conditions. This means that to begin with, any game/simulation will tend more towards the game side of things, so I wouldn't get all excited just yet.

The best I could find with regards to modelling crops yields under various conditions comes from here:

https://dssat.net/

They have a bunch of experiments which one can run experiments against, and will probably have the best simulations out there. However, it is exceedingly dry, and seems more a tool for academics and corporate types, than the lay-person who wishes to learn more.

List of related threads:
https://permies.com/t/9160/permaculture-simulation-game
https://permies.com/t/34741/game#824598
https://permies.com/t/22514/Permaculture-Game
https://permies.com/t/18836/request-comments-permaculture-simulator

if anyone finds any other threads mentioning a permaculture game/simulation, please let me know.



Cheers,

Henry

Hello Victor,

There seems to be a variety of Permaculture games mentioned out there on Permies, but I think people get overwhelmed with the immensity of the task, and stop. (including one which I started) I was wondering if you were continuing on with your project or not, or perhaps shed some light on what state it is in?

Karl Treen wrote:I think this is a great idea!

As a computer programmer with two decades of experience (C#, .Net, SQL Server, JavaScript, etc.) and a card game designer, I do have a few suggestions:

1. If you are looking to make money, you may want to eventually appeal a broad audience.  What can you offer the average (non-permie) gardener that would insidiously turn them into a Permaculture Jedi?  
2. To start with, a toolkit that leads people through the Permaculture Design process would be very helpful for all of us Permaculture planners, and maybe not that graphically complex. Ex: a Random Assembly generator, a Sector Analysis tool, a Highest Use tool, a Needs-and-Resource Analysis tool, etc, etc, etc.  A Permaculture Zone planner might be a little more complex - especially if you start to overlay sectors and stored data. I think this is kind of what you have in mind.  You could, however, start with these simpler (non-graphic, user input) tools.  These could be built with the idea that you would eventually overlay them into a more gamified version of the product.  Offer the prototype for 99 cents, build a following, create some buzz, run a Kickstarter (that's why you build the easier prototype - to create the buzz and gather a ton of FB friends and followers) and then start working on the cooler, gamified stuff.
3. If you are looking for an alternate, fairly simple project to help get things rolling, people have been asking me for an app or online version that would simulate the Food Forest card games.  I don't honestly know how much demand there is for this, but it's a comparatively easy build since most of the graphics already exist on the deck of cards.  It could be as simple as moving virtual cards around on a screen.  I can't pay for but would be happy to offer a partnership deal to the right team.
4. I have a ton of other ideas for you, but don't have any time to post it all right now.  Maybe I'll return later with more.

Hi Karl, thanks for that. I agree that the best way to keep the momentum going is via regular updates. however, stuff isn't going to get started on this for at least a couple of weeks.  We still need to do a bit more market research.

Yes, but the devil is in the detail.

I would hesitate to call it a "game" as such. I would like it to be more of an educational tool, (which isn't to say that it can't be fun), so a simulation would be better title.

But that is a potato/potah-toe situation.

Steve Taylor wrote:
A.) Yes

B.) $5-20 depending on sample and preview. Possibly $60 if it was amazing

C.) I would like to see updates on Permies.  I could see similarities between Civilization, Sim City, and garden planning software.  I'll think some more on it.  School systems might purchase the software.

D.) I'll keep you in mind.  A wiki page could help maintain reliable updates for plant/habit info and real time updates for various activities.  If Permies wanted to document their experiences into a useful data pack, that could be inputed into the program?  I don't know, just thinking.

Regarding the feedback, thanks Steve, that is very helpful. I agree that regular updates would be good, to make sure that it doesn't die a lonely death. I will try to post updates on here, and then migrate to a better place when possible. Cogs will not be turning on this project for at least another couple of weeks while we do some market research.