Aaron Barkel

After reading that post, it seems as though my idea has merit. Build an elevated road bed, use large rock, then fill with smaller rock/sand, etc. I figured that the filled tires on either side of the drive would keep the road base and rock from washing out and create a channel of sorts for the water to follow until it reaches my culvert.

There is a huge difference between something not working and something not being economically viable on a large scale. As a "factory farm" producing food for millions of people by a single farmer, I'm not entirely sure that food forests would be economically viable for a farmer. From what I have seen and read, it's pretty labor intensive as it isn't conducive to traditional mechanical means of harvesting, so by "current" conventional standards it doesn't work. However for a single family or a shared cooperative looking to feed a small number of people and sell the extras for a bit of cash, it seems like a very viable solution.

You also have to factor in that the whole concept of food forests hasn't been around for a very long time, so the technology for working them on a large scale hasn't even been invented yet. It took thousands of year for people to get from growing a small personal garden to the place where millions of people are fed from a handful of huge factory farms with dedicated machinery. As the concept gains momentum, new breakthroughs will happen that make the concept more economically viable.

Another issue is the turn around time for a food forest to grow. Humans as a species have a very short attention span. We tend to look at problems by finding solutions for the here and now and not look at what is best for the long term. While food forests may be a great way to produce food 20 years from now when they have matured, we have millions of people starving daily, so the push is on to feed everyone at the lowest cost to humans regardless of the toll it takes on the environment. I don't advocate this type of thinking, but it is how humans tend to think.

We are in the process of clearing an area to build our future house. Unfortunately, some of the area the driveway will go through is very low lying and each spring, it turns into a mud pit. Luckily, I have a very understanding wife, but unluckily, she likes to drive her sedan and isn't interested in converting to a truck. To that end, I am considering ways of constructing the driveway to negate the muddy effects. As I was considering this on my way to the ranch store this AM, I passed a local tire shop that I gotten old tires from before to make my ducks nests. This got me to thinking about the Earthship homes made from tires filled with compacted dirt. Then it hit me! Why don't I make the edges of the drive from tires with compacted dirt in them, then back fill between the tires with road base followed by sand to compact everything. Basically, it would look like this: OtireO ~rockrockrock~ OtireO

Thoughts or ideas on this?

Note: I am not affiliated with this site nor it's owner, but I found the information in his video very helpful.

It's starts out a bit slow, but goes into actual dollars and cents detail about how he earns his income, how much he makes per plot of land, how much he grows and where he sells it. I have been looking for examples like this to model my farm after in order to produce a consistent product selection at a marketable price. He is farming on relatively small plots of land (comparable to a normal suburban backyard) and producing a respectable income doing so. Well worth the 42 mins to watch.


http://www.sixfigurefarmingnztour.com/curtis-stone-intro-videos/?platform=hootsuite

I'd keep the compost area in a separately fenced off area or the ducks will root through it and you'll be left with no compost. (Speaking from experience)

Year 2 out of 5 here. I didn't know about the wildlife thing though, so that's good to know.

I think the OP is asking for answers that can't be gleaned from an international board such as this one and very likely can't even be answered by Google. The answers you're looking for vary greatly by geographic region and certainly within the micro regions within those geographic regions. IE. I live about 70 miles east of Dallas. I have been to several farmers markets in the area and each one varies greatly in what they offer. The market closest to me in a small town (Market 1) carries you normal garden variety items, corn, tomatoes, onions, eggs etc. There is another market (Market 2) about 65 miles away (north of Dallas) that has a boutique bread bakery, a pickle seller, a granola seller, a hot sauce seller, an organic egg seller, and generally higher end specialty items.

Market 1 is in a town of about 30k people in a generally rural area. Lots of people have their own chickens so eggs only go for around $3 a doz. It is much more of a meat and potatoes town with little disposable income for boutique items. Housing values around market 1 generally range from $60k to $150k with the high end being $200-$250k.

Market 2 is in a town of well over 100k people in a highly suburban area. Very few people garden (or even have the space for it) much less keep any animals. Housing values start around $130-150k an go up to over $1M on the high end. There is tons of disposable income and lots of soccer moms. Organic eggs go for $7 a dozen or more. A jar of pickles can fetch $5-$8 and the bread makers lowest cost loaf is $6.

I guess I typed all that to say that your best source of market revenue is to actually go to the market near you and ask the people there how much they make. Ask how much they bring, how they determine prices, etc. You'll probably get a better reception later in the day when things have slowed down. I know this post doesn't answer your question, but I hope it does illustrate why you are having such a hard time finding the answers you seek.

Lets consider the scenarios with real world numbers. I will consider 3 scenarios. All scenarios are for a $100k house

Scenario 1 uses the big mortgage paid out over long term. Owner pays takes out loan for $80k loan on house putting $20k down and investing $80k for the mortgage term of 30 years:

20,000 down
80,000 invest @ 7% = $608,890 ROI over 30 years
80,000 loan for 360 payments = $174,995 payments on house after 30 years @ 4% interest
486.10 monthly payment


Scenario 2 uses the small mortgage paid out over long term. Owner pays takes out loan for $20k loan on house putting $80k down and investing $20k for the mortgage term of 30 years:

80,000 down
20,000 invest @ 7% = $486,709 over 30 years adding $287 monthly (difference between monthly payment in scenario #1 and this one.)
20,000 loan for 360 payments = $71,873 payments on house after 30 years @ 4% interest
199.65 monthly payment


Scenario 3 uses the small mortgage paid out over short term. Owner pays takes out a 15 year loan for $20k loan on house putting $80k down and investing $20k for a term of 30 years:

80,000 down
20,000 invest @ 7% = $504,295 over 30 years adding $234 monthly for the first 15 years, then $486 monthly for the last 15 years (difference between monthly payment in scenario #1 and this one.)
20,000 loan for 180 payments = $45,378 payments on house after 15 years @ 4% interest
252.10 monthly payment


In a market with low interest like the one we are in right now. It makes sense, but when the interest rate rebounds to 6-8%, the model starts breaking when you consider risk vs reward. Earning a straight 10% ROI, it works, but the market is going to cycle at least 4 times during the 30 year period and you won't get a constant 10% interest on your investment. Below are the numbers with 7% house interest and 10% interest on investment:

Scenario 1 uses the big mortgage paid out over long term. Owner pays takes out loan for $80k loan on house putting $20k down and investing $80k for the mortgage term of 30 years:

20,000 down
80,000 invest @ 10% = $1,395,952 ROI over 30 years
80,000 loan for 360 payments = $229,107 payments on house after 30 years @ 7% interest
$636.41 monthly payment


Scenario 2 uses the small mortgage paid out over long term. Owner pays takes out loan for $20k loan on house putting $80k down and investing $20k for the mortgage term of 30 years:

80,000 down
20,000 invest @ 10% = $1,172,063 over 30 years adding $399 monthly (difference between monthly payment in scenario #1 and this one.)
20,000 loan for 360 payments = $85,401 payments on house after 30 years @ 7% interest
$237.23 monthly payment


Scenario 3 uses the small mortgage paid out over short term. Owner pays takes out a 15 year loan for $20k loan on house putting $80k down and investing $20k for a term of 30 years:

80,000 down
20,000 invest @ 10% = $1,188,266 over 30 years adding $352 monthly for the first 15 years, then $636 monthly for the last 15 years (difference between monthly payment in scenario #1 and this one.)
20,000 loan for 180 payments = $51,107 payments on house after 15 years @ 7% interest
$283.93 monthly payment

I am in the get it paid off camp. I hate paying interest to the bank. It's taking a decrease in salary commiserate to the interest rate you are paying. When we bought our place, we put 50% down to keep our monthly bills as low as possible. Our cars are paid off and we don't carry any significant credit card debt. This strategy has allowed me to leave the corporate world and focus on out homestead and our children. If anything were to happen to my wife's job, I could cover our monthly bills working at any big box. There is a lot to be said for peace of mind.

There are arguments both ways, and I suppose it also depends a lot on your life stage. I am 42 and plan to have our place paid off with the "big" house built by the time I am 50. That is also the same year the twins go to college. Suddenly, we will have almost no bills, at least a 50% decrease in living expenses and still be young enough to enjoy life. That to me is freedom.