Dave Kett

Douglas,

I see your point, but in all honesty the kits take longer to assemble than what the fellow in the video did.  Believe me I know. They require precision in the cuts and also the screw holes, unless you are using self tapping screws...  This was why I kept getting divrted to talking about burn barrels instead of the stove,   Just seemed that for at least part of your purpose a burn barrel with a chimney would be cheaper, easier, and faster.  But yes, those barrel stoves are aesthetically superior.

On an aside, it is really encouraging to see how knowledge of biochar has proliferated!

-Regards.....


[quote=Douglas Alpenstock]Yeah I know I could build my own. That would be more fun. But I have a lot of calls on my time right now so I need to pick my battles. This kit looks like a quick fix.

I already have open top barrels for char making. This project will be for quick burns that I can walk away from and know the coals are safely buttoned up.[/quote]

I have built three of these over the years.  For the second and third, I used a grinder with a sanding disc to remove the paint prior to firing it up.  This was a bit of work but worth it for an indoor unit.  It is true however that the paint will eventually burn off if you don't remove it before use.  You have to get it pretty hot though if you want to burn it off quickly.  

As for barrel type, I recommend you use the the open top kind with a disk lid or cover and a thick metal retaining strip or ring.  This give you easy access to the inside for firebrick or refractory cement installation, and easier attachment of the feet and exhaust or second barrel attachment collar.  You can pour a cement mixture of this nature in three steps.  Do the first one to an inch or two high in the center, let harden, and then rotate and do a second pour. Then rotate the other direction and do a third pour. The 2nd and third pours will overlap the edges of the first slab poured . Putting a few 1 inch long self tapping metal screws through the sides from the outside to be embedded in the concrete will ensure it remains in place.  You can also throw in a bit of cheap chicken wire or large grid hardware cloth to resist scaling or cracking but make sure it is embedded.  I recall reading somewhere that you can also substitute a high Portland concentration concrete to make a kind of high temp concrete, but have not tried that.  This was in the context of making propane forge chambers...

As long as I am on the topic of refractory cement mixes, an idea I have is to improve the combustion temp characteristics of these stoves by adding vermiculite, thus partially insulating the combustion chamber for a better burn.  It would be wise to attach a second level barrel for heat exchange, and some fins on the stack, as well.   If you don't do this and just use the bung end type, then get large diameter self tapping sheet metal screws.  Be sure to set the clutch on your drill gun appropriately so as not to strip the holes as you do the install.  Of course you can just use machine screws or stove bolts but this is a bit of a pain, especially if doing through only the door opening.  Don't use galvanized screws or bolts.  No point since the barrel is not galvanized, and you don't zinc fumes coming off this thing.  Perhaps this is less of a concern for an outdoor unit.  

Please forgive me for being a bit off topic since this might be overkill for an outdoor trash wood burner, but it is nice to experiment, and barrel stoves do have indoor utility in many cases.  For example, I can envision a situation where one might want to pack in supplies in a couple of them to remote building sites and then convert the empties barrels to a stove.

Ideal type but look for a used one: https://www.bayteccontainers.com/55galstdrop.html  I would recommend the bolt ring kind, but either will work.  You will want to replace the gasket ring with stove gasket or stove cement.

For what it's worth, if you are just using this as a glorified burn barrel, you may be better off just using a burn barrel but putting a 6 or 8 inch hole in the top (cut the top off if using the bung type of drum) but place it back on the barrel once you get the fire going.  Add handles or a bracket for a stick or pole to remove it when hot for refueling, or put it on a hinge.  Putting a chimney on a burn barrel greatly improves the efficiency and cleanliness of the burn.  Once red hot you will get minimal smoke or soot - just super hot emissions.  Don't forget the air inlets at the bottom of the barrel.  If you cut them with a grinder and do them as slats - i.e., don't cut them all the way off; just cut three sides of the rectangular openings, and bend them in at an angle to the tangent of the barrel - the incoming air will be directed in more or less tangentially into the barrel creating a cyclone effect.  You will get a whirling dervish of combustion emissions sort of like a cyclone coal furnace.  If you do this without a lid/chimney, it will stretch up to 8 feet high.  Pretty impressive and nice on a cold night for a social get together, but imperative that you don't have any vertical obstructions like tree limbs above it.  This may seem obvious, but you can get away with a lot of tempting of fate with a regular open burn barrel because the emissions are not as  hot to begin with and lose directional cohesion only a foot or so above the edge of the barrel (see Rocky 1 South Philly Italian market running scene for example of this - yes I spent some time in Philly and they do run burn barrels there in the winter - or did at least until 2014 when I left)

Frankly, you don't need the kit for what you have in mind.  Look up some videos on these.  This one would probably work for you:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xMHbJIFdfc  If you go this route, attach the hinges for the door before cutting, then cut to the hinges and then take them off temporarily to make the rest of the cut, and then reattach the hinges.  You get perfect alignment and ultimately easier.  Again as prior mentioned, if using self tapping screws, take care not to strip the holes as you install.  Use the clutch setting if you haven't been using drill guns for decades and have a good 'touch' with them.

Again, a bit of an apology for extending the scope past your initial post.  But we are all here to learn and share info...
 

You know, it depends on how long you want the back up power to last.  If you are just trying to survive a short term power outage, say a week, your best bet is probably going to be an internal combustion engine powered generator.   Get a good one that puts out a clean waveform.  I assume there is a forum here on gensets.  Best bet might be a small diesel one, just because you can avoid gasoline storage issues.  Then again you could just buy some PRI Gas Treatment and Fuel Preservative  (look it up; it even revitalizes stale gasoline) .

An argument can also be made for a duel fuel propane gasoline generator.

Point is that for simplicity and energy provision IN THE CURRENT ECONOMIC system, it is hard to beat a genset.

So, that is option 1 for short term electricity back up.  And it all depends on what you define as short term.

Option 2 is to buy some deep cycle lead acid batteries, a basic battery charger, and an appropriately sized inverter.  YOu will size the inverter according to your projected highest demand or load requirement.  (Spend $30 bucks and get a P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor.  Measure all your appliances usage.  I have read that sometimes they can smoke, so be careful about leaving it hooked up to a large demand device for long term measuring.  I know from using mine that I can run a full load of laundry in my old Kenmore washer for 1/5 of a kWh, believe it or not, because I measured.)

Anyway, you get about 700 charge discharge cycles out of lead acid tech if you don't discharge more than 50% in a cycle.  I think it's something like 300 cycles if you discharge to 20%.  Now if this is truly for back up and you don't have a lot of power outages, you could just assume you are going to discharge to 20%.  That gives you about 800 Watt hours per cycle per battery, or 4kWh for a 5 unit battery bank.  (A typical $100 deep cycle battery has about 1kWh of energy storage, but you MUST NOT use all of it.  You will kill the plates or dramatically reduce the life of the battery.)  Recall the examples in another member, Mike's excellent post.  4 kWh would be enough to run lighting, small electronics and such for multiple days.  IF you want to run heat generating equipment or other high demand equipment you are only going to get hours of usage.   (So don't.  Get a wood stove, propane stove, gravity fed pellet stove, or kerosene stove, or a gross of candles, if you want heat back up.   And heat water the old fashioned way for sponge baths.  (Or buy more propane and get a small on demand water heater) Get some 5 gallon propane tanks, and conversion hoses for light and cooking using camping equipment.   Don't forget extra mantles for the lamps.)  Believe it or not, old school Hoover type vacuum cleaners actually pull 13 or more amps, rivalling electric heaters.  So if you want to run a vacuum, you need an inverter that can handle that load (approximately 13 x 120 = 1560 watts.  So minimally a 2000 Watt inverter.  Now, 4 kW would only let you run that for about 2 and a half hours.  But assuming you even need to vacuum during a power outage, how long will it take to do so?  Point is that you could do it. Bottom line is that you need to size your battery bank and inverter for both maximum demand (+safety margin for initial peak demand) and the total amount of energy (kWh) you need to have during the outage.

Again, the point is that if it is a short duration outage you are planning for, you could conceivably do without the wind or solar or small scale hydro options, and just get batteries and an inverter. Btw, you're going to have a little money into the battery wiring harnesses and clamps and such as well, and a $25- $60 charger.

Now, if you are talking about longer duration outages, what you are really merging into is ALTERNATIVE or OFF GRID systems...  Totally different animal and all the preceding posts address that, when it comes down to it.  Basically, I am proposing that prepping for a power outage is a totally different situation from the kind of long term or permanent independence from the grid that one strives for with alternative energy.

So what do I have, or what have I done?  Well I have multiple 3k to 5k gasoline gensets, an 8k  diesel unit, and lots of fuel for both types of units.  I also have, UNDEPLOYED, about 6kW of solar panels of different sizes, a number of inverters, multiple charge controllers and a dozen or so lead acid deep cycle units.  I figure I will eventually move to lithium or whatever once that tech further matures.  I figure in a true grid down SHTF, TEOTWAWKi, Mad Max,  World Without Law (etc., etc.) situation, those older batteries still have value when paired with a single panel, small charge controller, and small inverter (e.g., 1kW).  Would make a huge difference for basic lighting, electronics, and water pumping.  Could barter those for the goats, chickens, etc. that I don't currently have, for example.  Again, assuming I had by then switched to Lithium.  But I have to admit,  I might not switch to Lithium.  May wait to see what "Donut" comes up with or Samsung...   The point is that I don't plan to even deploy solar until I actually need it.  Power in Southern Coastal Oregon is relatively cheap now, and given a normal winter, I wouldn't get much solar production anyway.

I hope this was all clear. Bottom line is that again, for short duration - even a few weeks - you are probably better with a genset and fuel...   Note that part of my reluctance to deploy solar is that we are overdue for a giant earthquake and I don't ven know if my house will survive it.  (Or me.) So I figure better to store panels and preps in fireproof and quake proof storage and be able to deploy if I really need it.

Also, my numbers are approximate.  Different deep cycle batteries, for example, will have different energy storage capacities and tolerance for discharge.

Really looking forward to trying this!  Thanks!!!

[quote=Christopher Weeks]One approach, that I expect to be unpopular, is to go to college, incur the debt, and make payments on that debt as long as the economy rewards you for it, and not a second later. Just default if the shit hits the fan. What, are they going to reposes your education? If the powers that be want repayment, they’ll arrange for a functional economy. [/quote]

You know, this isn't such a bad idea, but you still have to take classes that convey value.  Again, it's an opportunity cost situation.  Do you spend 4 years getting a degree in woke ideology?  Or a combination of basic economics, history, and 5 welding certifications?  Frankly, if you go the trades/skills/knowledge route - which I think you should; even if the skills get replaced by robots it will be a while before it happens, and it won't happen everywhere all at once - minimally, you will find your clients respect you (and will pay you) more once they realize you are far more than just a set of hands, albeit skilled.  I have experienced this personally.  

In addition, buy silver pre 1965 dimes, quarters, and half dollars.  IF your plan is to accrue debt and then default when the dollar finally crashes, or the entire economic edifice does, transforming into a different arrangement [Remember that Economics is merely the study of resource flows, Finance is about money per se., So just think about it all as the structure of resource flows and how to direct them (with money) (not bringing up military, force, and politics here, though this is a big part of it all)] then you will need something fungible and liquid to convey wealth value from old system into new system.  

Christopher's proposition (rhetorical I think) that the powers that be COULD arrange for a functional economy.  There is a lot loaded into that statement and he is 120% correct.  They don't, or perhaps more accurately, they want an economics system manipulated for their interests, at the expense of 95% of the rest of the global population.  One can play along, cooperate, have a few relative luxuries (relative, remember the lower consumption brackets in the West still live like royalty compared to most of the rest of the world)  but ultimately exist as a fat neofeudal serf.  Or one can recognize the situation for what it is and find ways to manipulate or 'game' it, and increase one's independence and decrease one's 'exposure.'

I know I am being verbose here, but nobody is forcing anyone to keep reading, but one more comment.  He (Christopher Weeks) writes that his suggestion may be unpopular.  Why?  He is right, I think, but why would it be unpopular?  I think, because acknowledging its validity constitutes an acknowledgement that the system is, minimally, corrupt  and skewed, and likely, as I believe, doomed anyway (due to that corruption.  Why exist by rules that our skewed and guarantee failure (relative failure)  if the rule structure contains aspects that allow it to be circumvented?  I could answer that question directly but instead suggest that the answer is more or less the same as that about sheep:  Why do sheep accept their situation?  (Nothing against sheep, per se...)