Parker Turtle

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since Jan 09, 2018
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Recent posts by Parker Turtle

here's a picture of the Bloomsweet, Olympia, WA, climate zone 8a, November 3, 2020

4 years ago
picture of Yuzu fruit I picked from the tree, cut open

Actually, the flavor isn't that bad, like lemon and a sour Clementine, although it's kind of dry, not the most juice, and it was very seedy. I ate half the fruit.
The peel of the fruit is also soft and mostly lacks bitterness, I almost kind of enjoy nibbling and taking little bites out of the peel.
If left on the tree very long, the fruit almost develops a very slight guava-like nuance to the aroma.
4 years ago
Ichang papeda fruits, picked November 5, 2020, from a tree in Portland, OR
(pictures below)

The taste is halfway between lemon and Kaffir lime.

The outer peels are very soft and surprisingly halfway edible, only a little bit of bitterness, maybe just a little bit skunky in flavor.

The fruits are not really the best quality, and taste a little bit unripe, but there is nothing really bad about them. They'd probably go well with gin.


Much more detailed write-up:

I know some of you may have been curious about what Ichang papeda tastes like, so the following might be very interesting to you. It is of course not easy to describe in words how exactly something tastes like, but I will try to be very careful and descriptive and give as many details as possible.

There is a tree in the Hoyt Arboretum, in Portland, and saw the Ichang papeda tree there. It's up growing against the wall of the visitor center.
The location of the Arboretum is within the city, but on a mostly forested little mountain ridge inside it, and it is at the top of the mountain.

They also had a Wollemi pine plant that I noticed. Getting off-topic for a moment, the Wollemi pine looked like some of the top had died back, perhaps due to the previous winter, but overall it looked like it was surviving and doing okay. It didn't look like it was ever covered, and it was at least 15 feet away from the building.

The Ichang papeda tree is about 6 feet tall, and there was a fair amount of fruit on it. Maybe 40 percent of the fruit looked like it had dropped. Half of the fruit looked like a ripe yellow, or very close to being ripe, but the fruit size was pretty small. Maybe not much bigger than poncirus. So maybe in this climate the fruit does not have time to grow to its maximum size, or maybe it is still too early in the year (October 6).
So it is possible the fruits I tasted might not have been fully ripe.

The tree itself looks like it is doing well. I could not see any signs of the base of the tree being grafted on to anything, although I cannot be entirely sure. So it might be own-root. The leaves looked a healthy color.

The fruits I tasted were not much bigger than normal Poncirus trifoliata fruits. Although Ichang papeda fruits are supposed to be bigger than that.


The fruits smell similar to lemon, but deeper smelling, maybe almost a little bit resinous woody smelling (entirely in a good way). It's a beautiful fragrance, at least in my personal opinion.
Something about the fragrance smells just a little "off", in a way that sort of reminds me of kaffir lime. Maybe even almost the slightest bit "skunky" (but I would not say in a bad way).
The fragrance is very similar, in a way, to Yuzu, except without the sour orange type of fragrance and without the "spiciness".

(And some of the deepness almost reminds me a little bit of the deep aspect of the smell in Satsuma mandarins, though it would be a stretch to say it smells like Satsuma)

I can eat the rinds and peel of the fruits with little difficulty. I would say they are about as edible as mandarinquat, but maybe with just slightly more bitterness. Pretty similar to a kumquat hybrid or to citron, more like citron in flavor.

The flavor of the fruits is somewhere between lemon, citron, lime, and kaffir lime. But a little bit of bitterness. Still edible though. (Definitely nothing like the awful flavor of Poncirus trifoliata)

The inside juice segments are not very big, but they are decent enough. It kind of reminds me, not surprisingly, of a Yuzu, a little bit dry, not very juicy. But enough to be edible, if we are talking about foraging or a survival situation.
The inside kind of reminds me of an unripe lime, I would say would be the best description.


I also did not notice seeds in the fruit. There was maybe one shriveled up seed that does not look like it will be viable. But then there are tiny little orange gel spot segments where the seeds should be, in each segment.


Something about the aroma of these fruits seem to go very well with Bombay Sapphire East gin.


I am actually a big fan of these fruits. But that is just my personal opinion. I don't want to get anyone else's hopes too up. I am a huge fan of sour-aromatic things like lemons.
I mostly like these little fruits due to the unique fragrance, which is sort of comparable to Yuzu but more on the lemon or citron side.

I'm pretty sure the majority of you will not like them as much as I, so take that into consideration.

(These are of course like a sour lemon and worse fruit quality than a normal lemon, so many people are not going to find these to be edible, except for the more adventurous types of persons who like tasting strange things)

However, I do have to concede one thing, and that is that after eating a whole fruit, they do not really sit the best in my stomach, and afterwards I am burping up a sort of skunky taste, which I did not really notice so much while I was eating them. It's like they have an "off" flavor that only kicks in a minute or two after you eat it, after you have already swallowed. But I did eat the whole fruits with the peel and rinds.

4 years ago
first picture - Kabosu tree, Vancouver, WA, November 3, 2020

second picture - Yuzu seedling, growing on own roots, just over 2 feet tall now, Yashiro Japanese garden, Olympia, WA, January 5, 2021
4 years ago
I can provide another update now, from Olympia, WA.

I have planted several Yuzu trees, some on rootstock and some seedlings on their own roots, and they all look like they are doing well. They hold onto their leaves during a normal winter, the leaves turn a little yellowish-green but then recover most of their green color after the winter is over, and then in about June they start sending out additional leaf growth. Yuzu seems to be the most vigorous growing of the hardy citrus varieties I am growing.
During a colder than normal winter, the Yuzu did suffer some moderate bark damage and half the leaves fell off, but it easily recovered much later in the year. The Yuzu has been in the ground for about four years, and gone through 3 winters.

I have a Sudachi tree which has gone through one winter, not counting this winter we are already in. It has survived and has just been doing okay. It seems to be a slow grower. I even saw it began to put out a tiny little fruit druplet, which appeared on the tree too late into the season and never was able to further develop.

I also planted a small Keraji seedling. Unfortunately, its first winter was a cold winter. I put a little plastic covering over it but it was still killed to the ground. Amazingly it was later able to begin recovering, and I saw leaf growth by July. It survived through the next winter but was still not very big, maybe only 2 inches tall, even at the end of the next year. It has slowly been able to grow, but I can tell by the coloration of the leaf growth over the winter that it probably does not have the hardiness level of Yuzu or Sudachi. Still, it is remarkable that such a small seedling was even able to survive. I am experimenting with a larger grafted Keraji that was just planted this year. So far, as of January 20, it still has fairly deep dark green colored leaves and looks like it is going to do well so long as this winter does not have colder temperatures. I planted it in more protected optimal spot (still outside and not covered).

I also have a Bloomsweet outside, planted in an optimal spot, with a warm south-facing brick wall of the house only two and a half feet behind it. The Bloomsweet has now survived through 3 winters (including this one). I covered it with a large paper grocery bag with two gallon containers of water under it only on the coldest night during the unusually cold winter. Otherwise it has not been covered. It suffered some severe bark damage at the base that winter, but was later able to recover. It has been growing moderately slow.

In Vancouver, WA (right across the bridge from Portland, OR) there is a big Yuzu bush in someone's yard that I am told produced 50 pounds of fruit one year. But fruit production can be off and on. (which is not that uncommon for many fruit trees under non-optimal conditions) This year the big bush produced very little fruit. The typical pattern goes one year with lots of fruit and then the next year with very little or no fruit. With about half the trees producing fruit in any given year.
This person also has a Kabosu tree which grew vigorously this year and was full of lots of fruit. I got to try one of the fruits, the quality is somewhere in-between Satsuma mandarins and Yuzu. The inside is like a Meyer lemon, kind of bland and insipid but a little more fragrant, but surprisingly the peel is moderately edible and is where most of the flavor seems to be, kind of analogous to calamondin. This person's two Sudachi plants did not grow anywhere near as fast.  


This is some additional information about the lineage origin of these unusual Japanese varieties I was able to find.
First of all, I need to describe one of the origin varieties, which I do not have, but seems to be an important ancestor. Kunenbo was, in Japan, a large sized very aromatic mandarin, almost similar to a tangor, but very seedy. Along with Kishu mandarin, Kunenbo was one of the original two parents of "unshiu-mikan", what we know as "Satsuma mandarin". So that would make Bloomsweet a close sibling related to Satsuma mandarin. Judging by many of its offspring, it seems apparent Bloomsweet is probably even slightly more cold hardy than Satsuma. The name "Kunenbo" translates as "nine year mother" or "ninth century mother" (which might make sense since a lot of citrus varieties were brought to Japan from China around the Ninth Century). A genetic analysis has shown Kunenbo to simply be a mandarin with a little bit of distant pomelo ancestry, which is not that unusual for many common mandarin varieties. (one of the parents of Kunenbo appears to have been Kishu mandarin)
Bloomsweet is believed to be the same as the Japanese variety which was called "Kinkoji", which came about from a cross between pomelo and Kunenbo. It was probably brought by Japanese immigrants who came to Texas to farm grapefruits, where it later was given the name "Bloomsweet grapefruit", although some might not really consider it a true grapefruit. The fruits are supposed to be somewhere in-between an orange and a grapefruit, but the inside is kind of watery and bland, and seedy, not really the best quality. Bloomsweet is said to be able to survive down to maybe 16 to 18 F.
Keraji, according to a genetic analysis, appears to have come about from Shikuwasa, which got backcrossed with Kunenbo three separate times (first cross was called kabuchi, second cross was called kikai-mikan, after the name of the island). It is not known exactly how Shikuwasa originated, but genetic analysis has shown it seems to be closely related to Tachibana, and both have some small amount of Yuzu or Ichang papeda genes. Tachibana seems to have been brought to the Southern Japanese islands very early on, before any other citrus. (Some even believe it might be the only citrus species actually indigenous to the Japan) It might have been used as a rootstock in China in ancient times, and then brought to Japan because it was more hardy and able to survive, and could have had uses for flavoring in cooking, but this is just speculation. It is said that Keraji can survive down to maybe 12 or 14 degrees F, making it significantly more cold hardy than Satsuma mandarin.
It is not known exactly how Yuzu originated, but Yuzu does seem to have originated in the same area of China where Ichang papeda originated, near and around the city of Yichang, on the upper reaches of the Yangtze river. There are two theories, Yuzu could have been a separate subspecies, which originated from genetic introgression of mandarin genes into a population pool of Ichang papeda. Or it could have resulted from human hybridization between mandarin (possibly sour mandarin) and Ichang papeda. (It would not have been a single hybridization event). Sour mandarin appears to have a little in common with Yuzu, but it is not clear which one of the two might be the ancestor of the other. (Yuzu is the Japanese name. In China they simply refer to it by another name that simply and vaguely translates as "fragrant orange").
I am one of the rare people who have had the opportunity to taste both Yuzu and Ichang papeda, picked fresh from the tree, and they are both very uniquely similar to each other in a way, yet substantially different in a different way. Comparing the two, Yuzu is much more sour orange-like whereas Ichang papeda is much more lemon/lime-like. Yet they both have a unique deep pungent fragrance, different from any other citrus.
Sudachi originated from a cross between Yuzu and another parent that was closely related to, or some hybrid of, Tachibana. Kabosu originated from a cross between Yuzu and Kunenbo.
Yuzu is said to be able to survive down to 10 F. However, it will suffer some fairly substantial damage at a temperature that low. It can however come through completely undamaged at 14 F. Sudachi appears to be nearly as hardy as Yuzu, but not quite as much.

Hopefully this hard-to-find and obscure information will be of interest to some of you. I hope this information might be useful to some of you. That is, if any of you are even able to get your hands on these varieties, which can be very difficult.

I actually have so much more that I would like to share and write on this topic, but this is enough for now.
4 years ago
If growing from seed, it's important to know that fruit trees which are not grafted onto different rootstock behave differently than the usual fruit trees you buy in a nursery that are grafted. Fruit trees growing on their own roots will grow to be much bigger, like a real tree. They will also take a lot longer before the tree begins producing fruit. You could be waiting 8-12 years. Being on different rootstock has a dwarfing effect, and more of the tree's energy is diverted earlier on towards fruit production, instead of growing branches.
7 years ago

Greg Martin wrote:Very cool.  Don't forget that most seedlings of Citrus are clones of the mother plant (nucellar seedlings).  When choosing a mother plant try to use those that set few seeds that are clones.


Some citrus varieties produce more zygotic seeds than others.

Generally most oranges (and citranges) produce almost entirely nucellar seed, so are difficult to breed unless they are the pollen parent. (One notable exception is Temple Orange, which is actually more of a tangor, to be more technically accurate)
Grapefruits produce about 30% zygotic seed, depending on the variety.
Lemon is only about one third nucellar.
Varieties like mandarins, pomelos, and citrons tend to be all zygotic.
Kumquat is zygotic but Calamondin in nucellar. Tangelo is 83-97% nucellar.
Flying Dragon trifoliate is roughly 25-30% zygotic.
Ichang papeda is zygotic, while yuzu is mostly nucellar

(For those who do not know, nucellar = genetic clone, zygotic = formed by sexual recombination of genes)


Dan Boone wrote:Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
I figure there ought to be something more useful than the poncirus that would grow here, but the only way I'm going to find it is to build a big cold frame for my seedling nursury and some semi-protected outdoor environments (lots and lots of south-facing masonry walls) and then start slaughtering four-year-old trees on an epic scale.  I've been saving kumquat and meyer lemon seeds, but that's as far as I've gotten...


Where you are something like a Citrangequat may be able to survive, or a Citrange cross with something else that has a high degree of cold hardiness but is more edible than citrange. Maybe Citrange x (Satsuma x Yuzu) or (Citrange x Ichang papeda) x Citrumelo
Obviously the colder climate you're in the harder it's going to be to get something very edible.

For zone 6 the only thing that might have any chance of surviving, besides Trifoliate, would be something like Citrange x Trifoliate

I've also seen simple plastic enclosures lined with large water containers (painted black) that can effectively knock the climate zone inside the enclosure up a notch. The enclosures are just big enough to fit one small tree. Up against a South-facing brick wall and a pond in front of it (with large boulders in the pond to help absorb and retain heat) would also help, possibly a terraced mound to provide shelter from the wind. I saw a video where they were able to create a zone 7 to 8 microclimate on a Montana ranch by carefully engineering the modication of a huge ditch that had already been excavated to take out gravel for a the construction of a road, and turning the bottom into a small lake.
7 years ago
Hello. I am breeding cold hardy citrus (oranges, grapefruits, etc) with a focus on developing new hybrid varieties that can easily survive in the Pacific Northwest climate (zone 8a, Seattle area) and that are better eating quality than current cold hardy citrus varieties.

I'm hoping to make outdoor citrus a new trend in this region.

Because of the extended cool temperatures and short growing season in this climate, I'm using indoor grow chambers for the plants that will be used in hybridization. With this approach I believe it will be possible to go from seed to fruit in as little as 3 to 4 years (maintaining optimal warm temperatures and continual light).


For any of you who may already be familiar with obscure field of cold hardy citrus, I will be hybridizing from the following varieties in my collection:

Citrumelo (trifoliate x grapefruit)
'Dunstan' citrumelo
(I've read reports of citrumelo being able to grow in England. At their best they are basically like a sour grapefruit and kind of lemon-like)

Changsha mandarin (not so different in flavor from a common mandarin, but flavor more watery and insepid, some say a slightly skunky tinge to the aroma, and fruits are very full of seeds. I obtained seeds from someone who was growing them outside in Tennessee)
changsha x satsuma mandarin hybrid

Yuzu (cold hardy down to 10 F, traditionally used to add flavor to things in Japan, one of the few varieties that can survive outside in the Seattle area)
Yuzu x Clementine hybrid (supposedly hardy to 10 F but in reality might be closer to 12 F, not as vigorous growing or resilent as Yuzu)
Ichang lemon (believed to be closely related to Ichang papeda but a pomelo hybrid, Chinese referred to it as "Fragrant ball", the same name they also used for citron)

Satsuma mandarin
Bloomsweet (believed to be the same variety as Japanese kinkoji, this variety is reminiscent of a grapefruit)
Keraji (supposedly hardy down to 12 F, mandarin-like small fruits but sour, said to taste like lemonade, although when grown from seed some selections may be watery and flavorless)
(from the research I've done from published DNA marker analysis published in Japan, it looks like all 3 above varieties were descended from a variety known as "Kunenbo". Kunenbo translates as "nine year mother" in Japanese, and appears to be some sort of tangor, with probable parentage from pomelo. It is said to possess a distinctive aromatic fragrance. Kinkoji is a backcross between a sour citrus and kunenbo. This sour citrus appears similar to Sudachi. I don't have kunenbo and it appears to be a difficult variety to source outside of Japan)

a seedling from
(edible citrange x Ichang papeda) x Minneola Tangelo

Red Shaddock
Chandler pomelo
pomelo (I believe 'Reinking')
grapefruit (common supermarket)
Oroblanco grapefruit (grown from seeds, Orablanco is triploid hybrid between grapefruit and pomelo, when a triploid variety is grown from seed I believe most of them will turn out to be normal diploids, though some will be genetically exactly identical to the parent, and a very small fraction may be tetrapoloid)
Duncan grapefruit (white grapefruit variety, unparalleled grapefruit flavor, used to be one of the most popular varieties)
Minneola Tangelo
Page Mandarin
Valencia Orange

Lemon (probably 'Lisbon')
Giant Yemenite citron (these can get bigger than a grapefruit, but almost don't have any flesh inside, all pith)
citron (probably 'Diamante')


I currently have over 100 seedling plants in large cups grown from seed.

As I'm sure many of you know, common citrus varieties have difficulty growing in this climate, and few of the common varieties can survive planted outside in the ground.

Out of the common citrus varieties, the ones with more cold-hardiness are: kumquat, Calamondin, Satsuma mandarin, Gold Nugget, Kara mandarin, Meyer lemon

I believe Satsuma mandarins are pretty borderline in the Pacific Northwest climate and they will need some light protection some years. I've heard reports of Meyer lemons in large containers surviving being left outside over the Winter in a sheltered sunny spot facing the South.
Young plants less than 2 feet tall are more vulnerable to cold and need to be brought inside.

One thing that's interesting to think about, if you look on a map, Seattle is actually a little bit farther North in latitude than Duluth, Minnesota.

7 years ago