We could be planting fruit trees from seed!l

Chris Kott wrote:You raise a valid point, Scott. I think that the best place for such experimentation is a permacultural homestead. It may be the only kind of operation that could form itself to the activities necessary for producing and disposing of the various categories of edibility. Pigs and chickens get the spitters, anything at all resembling a cider apple gets squeezed for cider, you have your various stages of pie and preserve apple, and then your straight-up crunch into it apple. I think that you have quite the task ahead of you if you want to breed a strain of apple that breeds true 100% of the time, but that is not to say that it's impossible.

If your goal is to provide perennial food sources, I don't think this is the path for you, if it's the only fruit tree project on your property. If not, I think growing fruit trees from strains that breed true from seed is a great idea, and there's a place for a landrace apple tree program there.

Your methodology will be important. I think you would need to keep good records about the source of each seed. I would also be ruthless about eliminating trees with unwanted characteristics. If you are growing in optimal conditions, I would check this with someone who knows apple trees better than I, but you could try the first fruit off each for a season or two, but eliminate with prejudice any that aren't up to snuff.

Also, what do you think of the idea of sourcing the apples for the seeds from places where you could actually observe the tree? It would be better if you could find permaculturalist apple tree people, but even being able to observe characteristics of the trees or the limbs the apples come off of might be very instructive. Also, you could choose trees in microclimates similar to those you intend to plant in. There might be various ways to jumpstart your progress towards a landrace apple (mind you, crabapples come to mind every time I hear that).

-CK

Bryant RedHawk wrote:Apples and diversity, interesting question you have posed since for many of the varieties it was a discovery of a tree already growing, with desirable characteristics, that created the variety.

Given that there are some 1000+ varieties of Apple trees already, one must question the need for "diversity". It seems to me that if you want a lot of different species growing on your place, it would be faster and more enjoyable to choose from the hundreds of old, heritage varieties already out there.
Then you would have some great, known starting stock, should you want to roll the dice with seed planting.

I grow apples on their own rootstock, mostly Arkansas Black, a variety we dearly love to eat and is recognized as the longest keeping apple you can grow.
While we started out with nursery grown trees, we can take pruned branches and root them for planting out the next spring, we can also plant true to species seed since this is the only apple tree we grow.

A few notes on apple trees from seed: they will take more than seven years to age enough to produce much of a crop per tree.
From seed trees may or may not produce edible fruit, as others have mentioned.
Seeds from grocery store apples will not be true to species as the commercial growers mix varieties in the orchards for cross pollination and thus you could get just about any cross imaginable.

Nursery stock, other than bare root trees, are usually 7-10 years old when you buy them (not including Walmart, Home depot, Lowe's and other "big box" stores which generally sell 2-4 year old trees in 5 gal. containers).

Diversity is indeed important but, with such diversity as is available in the apple tree world, it is hardly a huge concern, just plan to purchase in groups of two or three, from many different areas of the country and you should get a fair diversity of genetic materials.

Redhawk

Ray Moses wrote: How do you figure that pest of apple trees were not around 200 years ago?

stephen lowe wrote:Scott-

Have you looked at Sepp Holzer's techniques at all? He talks about spreading the seed containing mash left from pressing apples and cherrys for liquor onto newly formed terraces so that the trees can pioneer and stabilize the slopes. Then you can thin as needed and graft onto any that end up being duds but you also have a great chance to observe the progeny of your local trees.  This might be a process you would look at emulating as a way to quickly introduce lots of specimen that are providing a purpose. In theory you could even just graft canes of the best seedlings onto the lesser seedlings and thus work toward a totally locally adapted tree.

We were in the hot, humid, zone 7a-8a South which is known for all sorts of rots, fireblight strikes, fungal infections…you name it. And the trees that looked the best were the big ones. All of this observation caused me to believe that we probably have the best chances of growing low-input trees if they are on big roots.

I can grow other crops in the rows between the trees. I can graze animals. I can have a diversified income stream while waiting for the orchard to come into bearing and for the canopies to narrow the rows.

Mark Tudor wrote:A combo of needing seeds from some heirloom varieties, and then having to wait years to determine if the fruit produced are spitters or tasty is limiting that if I had to guess. Getting cuttings from varieties that produce well for certain environments and grafting to existing, developed root stock can get a tree producing faster, but it trades time for additional cost.

Lori Whit wrote:I think we were inspired by the same video.  James Prigioni, right?  It was really interesting.    
I did some research after watching it as well, you may or may not be interested in some of this.  

https://elizapples.com/2016/03/20/on-their-own-roots/  It's worth checking out for the picture of the author standing under a healthy 200-year-old still bearing tree, if nothing else!  
A brief quote:

We were in the hot, humid, zone 7a-8a South which is known for all sorts of rots, fireblight strikes, fungal infections…you name it. And the trees that looked the best were the big ones. All of this observation caused me to believe that we probably have the best chances of growing low-input trees if they are on big roots.

I can grow other crops in the rows between the trees. I can graze animals. I can have a diversified income stream while waiting for the orchard to come into bearing and for the canopies to narrow the rows.

And this has some quite interesting ideas for growing own-root apple trees, lots of technical stuff, and also about keeping them manageable:  https://www.orangepippin.com/resources/own-roots


As well, Stephen Hayes' youtube channel is quite interested for learning about some older English varieties.  I've watched a few so far and learned a lot.  (Note: not permaculture, not my growing region, but clearly a vast amount of practical knowledge to be gleaned regarding apples.)  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD4A796C53CC9103F  (There's a lot here and I've barely scratch the surface...)

The orchards around here are spraying millions of gallons of toxic herbicides and pesticides on the trees. What changed from the depression era and before?   The trees back in the day didn't get any herbicide or pesticide and they did well...if not they died.  

Though there are many varieties of apples in the U.S. I think most of the new trees being planted are clones.    Do you think most of the early apples were crab apple varieties (the only native) or did Johnny Apple seed create enough genetic diversity with his apple seeds.  

The orchards around here are spraying millions of gallons of toxic herbicides and pesticides on the trees. What changed from the depression era and before?   The trees back in the day didn't get any herbicide or pesticide and they did well...if not they died.  

Judith Browning wrote:

The orchards around here are spraying millions of gallons of toxic herbicides and pesticides on the trees. What changed from the depression era and before?   The trees back in the day didn't get any herbicide or pesticide and they did well...if not they died.  

This reminded me of something I read that said don't buy an old apple orchard (or land where there has been one) because of arsenic (I think?).  I'm pretty sure this was back in the twenties and thirties...maybe into the forties, that some serious heavy metals were used in orchards.

Found some links to articles about lead arsenate used in apple orchards various places.  One mentions it's use from the twenties through the sixties.

[/quote

I'm guessing it was in the forties that is when pesticide/herbicide use really kicked in.  I was reading a Wikipedia article and I had to stop reading when they started listing the benefits of the pesticides.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:I love growing fruit and nut trees from seed. My community is filled with seed grown, food producing trees. There is a robust community of people here who grow fruit and nut trees from seeds. I'm working on tree breeding projects that were worked on by my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents and their peers. I'm in this for the long haul. So what if it takes 15 years for a walnut to bear fruit? The walnut tree I planted 50 years ago is thriving. The walnut trees I planted as seedlings 15 years ago may be producing fruit any year now. I have distributed seed grown fruit and nut trees widely around my community. Some will grow as shade trees, some will grow adequate food, some will grow marvelous food and will form the basis of the next generation.

Last winter, I planted a bunch of apricot seeds. About 20 seedlings are alive this fall. In the spring, I intend to transplant them into a short row, spaced perhaps 2 feet apart. Then in a few years, after they have fruited, I'll select which to cull, and which to transplant, graft, or propagate further. I might even let them turn into a wild apricot hedge. I'm certainly not lacking for space to grow things, and there are plenty of vacant lots around to expand into if I ever felt the need.

As they say, the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. The same thing applies to growing trees from seeds: Offspring tend to resemble their parents and grandparents. Even if we don't know who's the daddy, there is an excellent chance that a great tree will produce great offspring.

Walnut seedlings

Very Inspirational.   Your articles are part of the reason I am interested in planting from seed.  Just let nature do the natural selection.   Good luck with the Apricots!  



P.S. I will be ordering some grain and corn from you this winter.


Scott

Kamaar Taliaferro wrote:I'm hoping this link will take you to a playlist from the Skillcult channel. It's about this dude's home-scale, amateur, apple breeding project.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB5-4Nxej2I&list=PL60FnyEY-eJAMOPvU-yyF4JfuW5ocJvC4

A short synopsis of his technique; He collects pollen and cross pollinates by hand the varieties/traits he's looking to experiment with; he then collects the seeds from the apples that grow; he plants those seeds out in high density nurseries; and then he grafts the whips onto (likely) dwarfing rootstocks to speed up their fruit set.

That's a good, if laborious, way of (relatively) quickly encouraging the traits in apples you're looking for. I plan on emulating it once I have the space. I've heard the cider rumblings coming out of Hudson recently as well--I'm on the NY-Ma border. In the future I'd be down to collaborate on some apple breeding madness.

Scott Foster wrote:I guess the biggest concern I have,and the question I can't answer is why do apple trees have so many pest and disease issues that weren't around 200 years ago.  Part of it could be that I don't have enough biodiversity yet...same issue with the pollinators.  So maybe these issues will work themselves out with time.

The orchards around here are spraying millions of gallons of toxic herbicides and pesticides on the trees. What changed from the depression era and before?   The trees back in the day didn't get any herbicide or pesticide and they did well...if not they died.

Wes Hunter wrote:

Scott Foster wrote:I guess the biggest concern I have,and the question I can't answer is why do apple trees have so many pest and disease issues that weren't around 200 years ago.  Part of it could be that I don't have enough biodiversity yet...same issue with the pollinators.  So maybe these issues will work themselves out with time.

The orchards around here are spraying millions of gallons of toxic herbicides and pesticides on the trees. What changed from the depression era and before?   The trees back in the day didn't get any herbicide or pesticide and they did well...if not they died.

I've got a book on my shelf titled "Orchard and Small Fruit Culture," copyright 1929, that devotes nearly 100 pages to controlling insects and diseases.  So they were around.

I don't know, but I'm going to hazard a guess that apple trees today aren't necessarily less resilient than they were then, but that apple culture has shifted and so more effort and emphasis is now placed on disease and insect control.  So what has changed?

It's easy to romanticize the past, but I think it's safe to say that the farms of yesteryear were more diverse than they are today.  When it was much more common to run livestock (poultry, sheep, hogs) under one's fruit trees, a burden was certainly eased.  Further, though the concept of production regions (e.g. dairy in Wisconsin, apples in Washington) is by no means new, I assume that particular regions were not as narrowly focused as they tend to be now, so that in apple country, for example, there was plenty of other agricultural production going on, thus mitigating some of the disease and insect risk.

I'd think another contributing factor is the increase in land prices.  Farmland is now not priced according to its productive capacity, it seems, but is valued as an investment or for residential and recreational concerns, in many places at least.  This then puts more strain on the farmer to make money, which could easily lead to a (desperate?) attempt to spray more in order to yield more salable fruit.

And then there are consumer demands for flawless fruit.  If you can't sell your apples because they've got a bit of scab, or a few indentations from insect bites, by gaw you're going to have to do something about it.

Anyway, I don't say this at all to dismiss your overall thoughts, Scott.  I've got a field of about 3 acres that borders my woodlot.  Over the coming couple years, my intention is to plant it (primarily) to widely spaced seedling apple trees.  I figure I'll get some apples for eating, some for cooking, some for cider, and some fit only for the deer and squirrels, which will, in turn, become apples for me.  I set out about 20 itty seedlings last spring in another location, but they ultimately didn't make it.  Whether they got grazed, pecked, or just outcompeted I don't know, but next spring I'll set them out in a nursery bed first to grow for a year or two before planting out.

Krofter Young wrote:All of the trees that Johnny Appleseed planted throughout the Ohio River Valley were from seed.  Those trees had the highly valuable random genetics your referring to.  Since then we've done nothing but select for ever sweeter and larger fruit.  In the process, nutrition has gone by the way side.  I've seen the term "spitters" used several times in this thread.  Too bad.  Those spitters are often the most nutritious apples. With diabetes and obesity running rampant (due to deriving ever more calories from carbs (sugars)), we would do well to eat more spitters and fewer of the sickly (literally) sweet apples found in most stores today.  Besides, planting from seed leverages genetics much more powerfully to develop land races and cultivars than planting the same old root stocks and waiting for hundreds of years for that root stock to hopefully acclimate to the soil and climate conditions of any given local.

Scott Foster wrote:Why aren't we doing some of this with apple trees for instance?  I have apple trees on the mind because they are the bain of my existence when it comes to disease.

"I understand why we clone, I do it too. There isn't a better way to plant fifty trees without spending a dime "