anndelise McCoy

I apologize if my post was misleading.
The point of it was to show that each person has their own expectations and levels of tolerance.  Even each of the individual "stakeholders".

The problem usually comes in when someone else (aka another stakeholder) expects that the other stakeholders will have the same expectations and levels of tolerance.

If we were to design something along permaculture values, we would take those into consideration.

I think that a lot of this has to do with varying levels of expectations and tolerances.

Small example:
In my home there is me, my s.o. and my teenage daughter.
None of us like doing housework nor cooking.

On cooking:
My s.o. is willing to cook for me daily, and on weekends breakfast for all of us.  He resists the idea of cooking dinners for my daughter.  BUT, if I make the decisions on what to cook, then he'll cook dinner for us all.

My daughter will only cook if she's cooking for herself.  Even then her skills are at the frozen meal + microwave level, just starting to test out using the stovetop to warm up non-frozen foods.

Me, well, I dislike cooking.  If left to myself, I tend to eat some very basic foods, simple cooking, usually rather bland, and usually fairly repetitive.  For example, during the day I eat frozen veggies that were warmed up over the stove, with butter, and cheese on top.  Variety comes in the form of which bag of veggies, and/or which of two cheeses to use.  Dinner is either veggies with yams/potatoes or ground meat with packet seasoning.

This kind of eating doesn't provide enough calories for my s.o. nor my daughter.  He doesn't mind the blandness nor the repetitiveness, but my daughter does.

So right there, we have conflicts between different expectations of what a meal should be made up of, different skill levels, different energy levels, and different tolerances.

If we were lumped in with someone who had higher expectations regarding meals and flavors and variety, that person would hate living with us.

On cleaning:
I hate my home.  I hate how messy it is.  I'm not a spotless kind of person (I want to be in a place that feels lived in..like a home not a museum), but I do have expectations of what I consider clean enough.  My tolerance levels are higher than my neighbor who has a usually spotless home, but lower than the people I live with. 

My s.o. is cluttered, and will clean things like counters and stove tops once a week or so, bathrooms once or twice a year.  Higher tolerance than me, but lower than my daughter.

My daughter doesn't seem to notice clutter and dirt and filth.  It's a miracle when she clears a pathway on the floor from her door to her computer.  And I finally made her clean her bathroom last month...it had been at least a year and a half since I'd had my s.o. go in there and clean it up.  She doesn't understand that her friends might feel icky when visiting, and that's probably why they stopped visiting.

...

Now, I've tried coming up with rules and consequences.  But I detest having to enforce them.  It goes against almost every fiber of my being.  Plus, it caused so much strife and ill-will in the household.  So I stopped trying to get them to meet my cleaning expectations...and by doing so it improved our relationships.

Since I'm the one with the lowest tolerance for mess, I tend to do more in terms of getting the mess above that tolerance level.  It's not how I'd like it, but it's not driving me nuts either.  And when I'm unable to stand/walk, and the mess reaches a lower level, then my s.o.'s expectations/tolerance kicks in.  He'll clean up to the point where it's not driving him nuts.  And my daughter?  well, she's not allowed to invite anyone over, nor visit anyone unless she's got her floors picked up, clothes done, and bed made.  It's a minimum.

However, sometimes her area of the house drives me so nutso that I take some boxes and just pack a bunch of the stuff up into it.  Which drives her nuts cuz then she can't get to what she wants without a lot of searching...however this also encourages her to at least try to keep certain things picked up.

Soooo...
if we were to apply a couple of permaculture ideas,
my daughter would clean up the things that drove her nuts...
my s.o. would clean a little further, covering the areas that he doesn't like...
and I would cover the rest of it that's driving me crazy.

As my daughter gets used to a certain level of cleanliness in the kitchen, her tolerance level lowers, her expectations of what it should be like increases.  Not to my level, but it's still a raised level from before.  But she'd still need to get habituated to DOING something.  But the motivation that comes from within is a whole lot stronger than someone else's rules and sanctions.

I don't care how many rules and sanctions there are, if someone were to try to force me to be at the level of expectation and tolerance as my neighbor, I'd tell them where they could stick it.

@briggsshore
The tagline is to help express what the groups is for, what their purpose is, in a short, clear, but interesting manner.  For now I'm using
"Cain Lake Resiliency - local residents creating local resources".

Today I put out a few strips of paper with that tagline with the forum and email address.  This went onto a little bulletin board where people put ads up.  A person can just grab a strip and take it home with them.  But the tagline helps catch their interest long enough to at least look up the forum.

It may not be marketing a business, but it's still marketing.


Regarding a meeting place, my post to Robert Ray goes more in depth.


I admit that I don't know anyone around here except for about 6 houses.  Of that 6, I only really get to talk with 2, and only one of those recently.  I've lived here for 6 years.  I'm an extrovert.  People here keep to themselves, putting up walls of privacy.  Needless to say, the isolation has been driving me crazy. lol 

Earlier this week I talked with the one neighbor I see fairly regularly.  She's all for it.  She's also sending out word to the people that she knows around here.  One of the women she knows, that she believes will really get into the idea, and has been around for about 20 years, is also supposedly a woman who tends to organize things and gets things done.  Both of these women are very busy with other projects dealing with their children, though.

So for now, it's at the very very beginning stages.
It's going mostly by word of mouth, with the start of the 'flyer' slips mentioned above.

Earlier today I talked with one of my daughter's friends and her mother.  The mother is excited by the idea, but doesn't know how to use a computer.  Her daughter said she'd show her, heh.

I decided to go ahead and put out some flyer slips because I really need ideas other than my own.  I need someone to bounce ideas off of, etc.  My neighbor isn't the type.  She's more like, "tell me what you need, and I'll put some feelers out".  The other woman seems to be the type "tell me what  you want done, and I'll help you get it done".  And I'm more like "hey, here's an idea...anyone wanna take over from there?"

I'm told that the beginning stage is amongst the hardest.
You don't yet have access to resources that'll help out later,
and you're left doing most of the initial steps on your own.

What I had hoped for, with the whole intentional community and transition town efforts commonly mentioned in permaculture forums, was that maybe there would be something a little more helpful than "set up a meeting so the members can talk".  That's what I'm trying to do now.  Set up an area where people can talk.

But if I were to, at this moment, just put out a flyer calling for a meeting, it would go unnoticed, and/or ignored.  The small handful who might respond would feel that it wasn't worth returning.  Right now, people just aren't all that invested here, particularly with the gas prices increasing.

But if I were to start building some connections, which the forum will help provide, then I would a) have creative resources to make an interesting flyer, b) have a wider word of mouth range, and c) be in a better position to set up a community building potluck/meeting.  AND...I wouldn't have to do it all by myself.   

I had hoped to make use of any people in the "intentional community / city repair / ecovillage forum" who've gone through the process.  Drawing from someone else's experiences helps to prevent wasting time trying to reinvent the wheel, so to say.

And, perhaps my efforts here will provide insight for someone else who may later try something similar.

Thank you, (and thanks to Robert Ray) for your suggestions for what to take into consideration. 

@Robert Ray,
On the forum I've asked for ideas on how to reach those who, for whatever reason, won't be accessing the forum.  But yeah, I recognize this as something to find a solution for.

Some ideas might be to create a newsletter to mail/deliver to them, which would include an updated directory.  Provide a contact phone number.  And eventually find a place to hold in person meetings, like maybe a pot-luck kind of thing.

The places that I'm aware of, for now, are:
A clubhouse in the 'community' I live in, that a resident here would have to reserve, but the 'community government' here might not allow it for that use.  (this gets complicated, heh)

A bar. (would put off the religious folks)
A church a block away from the bar. (would put off the non-religious folks)
A half empty building (this might be the ideal place if can rent cheaply or freely)
And a lot that sometimes gets used as a flea market kind of thing. (no covering)

There are people who've lived here longer than I, and might know of other options.  There's just not too many buildings around here that aren't on private lands.

Anyways, yeah, working on that one.

After setting up the yahoo group, and trying to get my daughter signed up on it through her gmail account, and seeing how clunky it was to deal with yahoo groups, I felt demotivated.  But then my daughter suggested a forum 'supplier' that she makes use of, and has been on other people's forums using that 'supplier', so I looked into it.  Yay...no yahoo group mess.

I created the forum and set up a few boards to give an idea of what I'm hoping will get local people to respond to.  I also feel much better about how it looks and feels.

So  now, I've still gotta work on the flyer thing.
Preferably with a less cheesy approach than those questions turned out to be. 
This means coming up with a tagline for the forum.  And noone to bounce ideas off of *cries*.

Ya know, it's kinda funny...sad, but funny...
I see so much talk about setting up communities and such, but everything is so generalized.  It kinda makes me wonder how many people talk about it, vs how many actually attempt it.  Or, maybe I'm missing the important stuff that I can't seem to find on my own.  Argh!!  And the places that seem like they might actually have stuff that I could use, want me to pay a high fee to take a course from them...and then hope that maybe they'll cover what I need.  Uh...No.

I won't take the Peak Oil approach.
I won't start off with the Transition Towns approach.
I'm not interested in arguing nor convincing people that this is best for them.
I just want to send out 'feelers' and let people know that hey...we're creating connections and potential resources for our area.  If this interests you, join in, if not...that's ok too.  (you = the people in this area)

Anyways, does anyone have any specific suggestions?
Right now I'm waiting for a book from the library to be available (end of the month).  This book goes into how to create a tagline and logo.  Hopefully this will help me get a flyer set up to distribute.
But I'm open to other ideas or resources.

Not that this will help much...

This was actually the first set of books.  I was looking at Edible Forest Gardening before I looked at "permaculture".  I bought the set.  Read pieces of it here and there.  But I lack a plant/gardening background, so I couldn't make full use of it.  I do like the charts that the book has.  And it seemed quite thorough to me, aside from lacking actual horticulture information.  But there was so much information for this newbie, that it was overwhelming, even when I tried to go through the process.  But then, I tend to get easily distracted, and so rather than work through the process, I got caught up looking up "permaculture".

Gaia's Garden (my 2nd purchase) and The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture are both much easier for the average person to read, as well as for a newbie to Permaculture.  But...I still run into problems with the actual implementation side of things.  (I greatly admire hands-on abilities more than theory, but I read more theory than do hands-on.)

However, if given a choice between Mollison's Intro to Permaculture (I haven't gotten to see the Design book yet) vs Edible Forest Gardens, I'd choose Dave Jacke's books.

If given a choice between either Gaia's Garden or The Earth User's Guide, vs Jacke's books, I'd purchase The Earth User's Guide first, then it would be a toss up to me on whether to later buy Jacke's book (more thorough) or G.G. (less expensive).

So ultimately it depends on
how much you like theory and making/reading charts (Edible Forest Garden),
how much you like planning/organizing first (Gaia's Garden),
or how much you'd prefer to feel like your already doing something right from the get go (Earth User's Guide to Permaculture).
Oh, and also how much cost influences your decisions.

Ok, I've decided to take a different approach.

I decided that I didn't want to be limited to the specific 'community' I'm in.  I'd rather include the entire area that leads off the same main road.  So now I won't be writing a letter of suggestion to the community 'government'.

Since I don't have computer skills, I started a simply yahoo group.
Now I'm working on what info will go into a flyer that I can put at the corner store and the clubhouse and a few other small places.

I'm thinking of asking questions like:
Do you know...
* [person] at [address] sells fresh eggs on Wednesdays and Thursdays from 12pm-5pm?
* which neighbor you can go to for clothing sewing or mending?
* which of your neighbors can show you how to do [skill]?
* which of your neighbors is looking for people to play board games with?
* which of your neighbors would like to share transportation costs and time?
* which of your  neighbors is looking for part time help?
* ....[more bits of info/questions]....
* which of your neighbors could use YOUR help?
. . . . (your expertise, your knowledge, your skills)?

Any ideas on which kinds of questions/info to include to intrigue people?
I don't really know anyone here yet, so I can't really give specifics.

My youngest cat is one who was surviving off of bugs she could catch, before her eyes were even fully focusing.  Her mother had disappeared, probably died, too soon.

Anyways, point is that she's never lost the bug catching desire.  She'll eat any bug she can catch, and she's quick at catching them too.  Flies, grasshoppers, moths, whatever.  Unfortunately for her she's an inside cat with access to a cage outside.  This does limit her usage in a permaculture guild.  But it keeps our house free from straying flies, hornets, and ants.

However, when I've planted my broccoli and cauliflower in a container on the porch near the cage, she did pretty well at keeping that one pest from those plants.  If it flew into the cage, it was a gonner.

As I design and implement my yard garden, I intend to extend the cage into a low run that'll meander around parts of the yard.  This will allow her to catch all sorts of insects around the garden, while still keeping her safe.

I live in a 'community' that isn't a community.  It's merely some land that got divided into a bunch of plots and slapped itself with a 'community' label and created some bylaws for its residents.

There is no resident investment opportunities.  It's more like a place to store our stuff and sleep while we live elsewhere.

Currently, there is a website with an alloted business advertising space.  Few people know that it's there, and it's not all that inspirational, nor does it allow for socializing.

There is a bulletin board on our local corner store (gas station store type foods).
This is more often used, but still doesn't allow for socializing.

Food is purchased in the towns that are 20 minute drives away.
The nearest public transport option is 5 miles away via a too dangerous to bicycle road.  Parking area for it is unsecured and relatively costly.  Also, the bus times are of limited use, starting too late for people to use it to get to work, and ending before most people leave work.  And if you miss a bus, you have to wait an hour to an hourandhalf for the next one.  If you miss the last bus, you're screwed.

When the gas prices suddenly rose a while back, many residents moved out.
As the gas prices rise now, more residents are looking to move out.
If a severe economic downturn were to occur, this place would be akin to a ghost town.  Except it was never a town to begin with, not even a village.

Basically, there are no local resources.

Except that there are.
It's just that noone here knows about them yet,
and much of the resource potential hasn't been created here yet.

My first step towards trying to encourage community investment here is to request a forum to be created for it.  (If the community 'government' doesn't want to create a forum using their resources, then I will try to find someone local who has enough computer knowledge/experience and who would be willing to create and run a forum, probably at my own cost.)

For now, I am drafting up a letter of request to put into their Suggestion Box.
I'm not interested in trying to sell anyone on Peak Oil, or other such things.  I figure that a better approach would be to sell them on the benefits of community investment by its residents.

If you were drafting up a similar suggestion/request.  What would you include?  What would you focus on?  What would you be cautious of?  Any other considerations?

The following is my first draft, but I'm nowhere near satisfied with it.  Feedback would be appreciated.

I was wondering if you have considered setting up an electronic forum type page for people in the [GLC] to converse or discuss topics on.  A way for people in the community to connect with other people in the community based on mutual interests, concerns, or resources.

For example, with the gas prices increasing, being able to connect with others in this community who would like to do ride sharing would be a benefit.

Another example, connecting gardeners together, both as a learning resource, but also as a possible means of promoting something like a mini-farmer's market type thing, where local gardeners can offer their extra foods to others in the community.

Or a forum could even provide a way of finding local resources within the [GLC].  A person looking for a resource, such as a painter, a babysitter, to borrow a book, or to learn a skill, can advertise in the forum what they are looking for (or what they can provide as a resource for others).

I believe that setting up a forum like this could help increase the community feel of [GLC].  This means that residents would begin investing time, emotion, and maybe even money into the community.  This would improve the economic resiliency of [GLC] as a viable living area when/if economic times gets hard.

((unsure of ending))
[signature]

Again, feedback would be appreciated.

In my experience, many people will call someone a 'free-loader' merely because the supposed 'free-loader' doesn't fill the expectations of the caller.  Often times, those expectations aren't related to what the supposed 'free-loader' is willing/able to do.  Whether due to lack of interest, lack of skill, or it goes against an innate personality characteristic.  Often, the caller doesn't even notice what the 'free-loader' does behind the scenes...in areas that the caller isn't themselves focused on.

For example, I've been on social security in the usa since I was 24, but it was back payed to when I was 21.  I'm 39 now.  Many people hear that and automatically assume that I'm a 'free-loader'.  Their focus is on my inability to maintain even a part time job.  They fail to recognize that there are other ways to give to a community than holding a job that increases the profit margin of the company's owners/investors, and paying taxes.  They fail to see that I return what I'm able to to individuals, rather than to corporations/government.  They fail to notice the little things I do that helps others in big, personal ways for those others...that may not be important at all to the caller. No, all they hear is that I'm on social security, that for reasons unknown to them I can't maintain a regular job, or that I'm at home day-after-day...therefore I'm a 'free-loader' to them.

If you have a 'free-loader', help them find their niche.  Find out what interests them, sometimes they don't even know what interests them, so it will take time to find that.  Find out what skills that they have, and how those specific skills can be used.  Find out how those specific skills can be expanded or altered to better suit the situation at hand, and help that person gain the new skills.  Find out what functions the individual is willing/able to perform, it may turn out to be a bunch of minor functions rather than one major focus.  And when dealing with this person, don't forget to take into account the "nurture" as well as the "nature".  A lot of what you're judging them for is learned behavior, and learned expectations, (meaning not just their learned behavior, but your own as well).