Rhiannon Drake

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Summary

part 3 of a 3 part podcast

Permaculture smackdown 33 with Paul, Rob and Samantha

Rob raises the question of how many chickens will be self-supporting in Paul's proposed paddock system.

Paul says the chickens will probably get protein from insects, but there are also kitchen scraps and offal from hogs and other things which can boost it.  Paul feels that 20 chickens would give him enough eggs for the people at base camp.  He further figures that 20 chickens in an acre in which there are hügelkulturs for 7-10 days won't have time to turn it into a wasteland.  

Rob also mentions that chickens tend to expand, to which Paul counters with chicken soup: the population can be managed so that it doesn't overload the land.

They take a few questions from the chat

* how would feral chickens cope in a Montana winter?  Paul figures that the wild turkeys do fine, so the right kind of chickens should be good.  

* maybe you could raise fish or have a fish trap to get more protein?  This is something Paul hadn't thought of.

Rob says if chickens were the size of ostriches he'd be scared of them, as they catch and eat 'most anything.  Paul agrees that chickens are great at keeping insects down.  

Paul starts to sum up his proposed system:  It needs to be reliable without relying on human discipline, and produce excellent quality eggs and meat.

Samantha comments that mulberries are great chicken food, so mulberry trees could be a good plan.

Rob wonders what the next steps are - will they start with a smaller scale pilot scheme?  Samantha suggests that if enough people at the lab want chicken and eggs, they will be keen to help build the chicken infrastructure.  Paul takes the point that a quarter-acre paddock scheme could be good as it would be easier to build, but Paul feels going for it with the 1-acre paddocks from the start will be how it goes.

Relevant Threads

Chickens forum
Turkeys forum

chickens at basecamp
Rotational Grazing forum

Weave a fish trap - PEM BB traditional.straw.fishtrap

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 3 of a 3 part podcast

Permaculture smackdown 33 with Paul, Rob and Samantha

Rob raises the question of how many chickens will be self-supporting in Paul's proposed paddock system.

Paul says the chickens will probably get protein from insects, but there are also kitchen scraps and offal from hogs and other things which can boost it.  Paul feels that 20 chickens would give him enough eggs for the people at base camp.  He further figures that 20 chickens in an acre in which there are hügelkulturs for 7-10 days won't have time to turn it into a wasteland.  

Rob also mentions that chickens tend to expand, to which Paul counters with chicken soup: the population can be managed so that it doesn't overload the land.

They take a few questions from the chat

* how would feral chickens cope in a Montana winter?  Paul figures that the wild turkeys do fine, so the right kind of chickens should be good.  

* maybe you could raise fish or have a fish trap to get more protein?  This is something Paul hadn't thought of.

Rob says if chickens were the size of ostriches he'd be scared of them, as they catch and eat 'most anything.  Paul agrees that chickens are great at keeping insects down.  

Paul starts to sum up his proposed system:  It needs to be reliable without relying on human discipline, and produce excellent quality eggs and meat.

Samantha comments that mulberries are great chicken food, so mulberry trees could be a good plan.

Rob wonders what the next steps are - will they start with a smaller scale pilot scheme?  Samantha suggests that if enough people at the lab want chicken and eggs, they will be keen to help build the chicken infrastructure.  Paul takes the point that a quarter-acre paddock scheme could be good as it would be easier to build, but Paul feels going for it with the 1-acre paddocks from the start will be how it goes.

Relevant Threads

Chickens forum
Turkeys forum

chickens at basecamp
Rotational Grazing forum

Weave a fish trap - PEM BB traditional.straw.fishtrap

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 2 of a 3 part podcast

Permaculture smackdown 33 with Paul, Rob and Samantha

Paul says the turkeys have moved on from the turkey tree now, although there is a flock around somewhere.

Rob has described the chickens they had when he was young.  Paul wonders if you can still get those, but Rob says game chickens are still available.  Paul thinks that game chickens would be a good choice for homesteading.

However Paul doesn't want to do that at basecamp.  It could be a good experiment for the labs.  Feral chickens at basecamp could stray to the neighbor's land where they spray toxic gick, and that would prevent the chickens from being organic or better.

Paul also mentions what many people do which is called the wagon wheel design, where the chickens live in a coop in the center of a bunch of paddocks.  However, this can lead to a build up of disease.

Paul is working on a design with multiple paddocks and a wheeled coop which can be moved around.  Hügelkulturs will be built in the paddocks.  This is part of the point of the new access road which they've been working on.

Paul goes on a minor rant about electric fence, and the upshot of that is he forbids it at his place.  Instead he prefers a junkpole fence, except he might put a wire mesh fence along the roadside; but only where necessary as field fence is galvanized and that is a toxin.  They talk a bit about fences and fencing.

Relevant Threads

Chickens forum
Turkeys forum

chickens at basecamp
Rotational Grazing forum

junkpole fence: freaky cheap chicken/deer fence made from wood typically thrown away

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 1 of a 3 part podcast

Permaculture smackdown 33: Paul, Rob and Samantha are talking about chickens.

Paul talks about what chickens are fed on.  Rob says if you feed the chickens on horseradish you get horseradish flavored eggs.  Animal feed that you buy is generally not the same standard as human-grade food, and Paul is concerned about feeding chickens on sub standard feed.  

Paul's vision is to have 4 paddocks with hügelkulturs growing food both for himself and the chickens.  He's thinking of paddocks of about an acre each, in which the chickens stay for about 4 weeks at a time.  

Rob describes how game chickens used to be run when he was a kid.  Paul labels this "feral chickens" and he quite likes the idea but it isn't really what he wants to build at the labs.

Paul describes how when he arrived in Montana there were about 100 turkeys which would destroy the gardens and hügelkulturs but they also had a habit of visiting other properties where they spray.  After building the first paddock and shooting at them enough with marbles from a wrist rocket, they now keep away from the house and the hügelkulturs.  The turkeys roost in the turkey tree, which makes the tree happy at least.

Relevant Threads

Chickens forum
Turkeys forum

Rotational Grazing forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 2 of a 2 part podcast

Paul continues talking WOFATIs with Todd.

Coming back to Todd's build: Paul asserts that were he building it, he wouldn't put concrete in under the posts.  However he does acknowledge there isn't yet enough data on WOAFTI builds, the whole design is still being developed.

Speaking more generally, Paul asserts that to build version 3 of a thing, you need to have versions 1 and 2 for comparison.  One reason for the problems at Allerton abbey was that the roof was made too thick initially, for example.  The greenhouse is also proving the annual thermal inertia model, so far it has yet to reach freezing inside, and also is less prone to overheat in summer.

Todd asks for any other "don't do this" advice for building a WOFATI.  Paul says that in hindsight they would've built them with running water, a functional kitchen and shower.  In the case of Allerton abbey the toilet is about 100ft away, and that can be an issue in bad weather.  Cooper cabin has the indoor willow feeder installed which is likely the way any further cabins will be made.

He also touches on solar power systems.  There have been various "home-made" solar systems over the years, but they tend to be unreliable and harder to fix than bought-in systems, so the saving on cost tends not to persist long-term.

Todd mentions wing walls and Paul has some ideas for what might be good in a future build, and some issues arising from incorrect builds - Todd recalls the first berm shed build about which he was doubtful.  Paul says the problem is he wasn't on site enough, combined with people who had more optimism than knowledge.  

The main issues with Allerton abbey have been caused by drainage issues due to build errors.  Being paranoid about drainage is key.

Relevant Threads

Wofati engineering questions for Paul - real world applications and experience

Devious Experiments with a Truly Passive Greenhouse - full movie

the first wofati - allerton abbey- version 0.7
Wofati and Earth Berm forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 1 of a 2 part podcast

Paul is with Todd who wants to talk WOFATI stuff

Todd is building a WOFATI-esque building.  Some of the materials will be bought in, and he doesn't have enough lumber to harvest.  It's still inspired by the WOFATI.

Todd's question is whether he needs some more solid footing under the posts so the weight of the building doesn't drive the posts into the ground.  Paul's current method uses stones and gravel in the base of the hole and rams the post into it.  Todd's been hearing different figures for how much weight soil can support, which obviously depends on the soil.  

Paul says that some of the posts have sunk on earlier builds, such as Allerton abbey, but Paul also says that initially too much soil was put on the roof, and had to be removed.  Since then lessons have been learned and especially applied to the greenhouse.  

Paul suggests the poles should be at least 4 ft deep to make a solid construction.  Depending on the ground and the poles, deeper could be better.

Todd says the site was a slope and some of it has already been dug out at least 3 ft.  Although there are trees the roots aren't deep.  

Paul feels the ground is going to be pretty compacted.  In less solid ground they have been putting in "dead men" This is a big log which sits horizontally in the ground making a much bigger footing for posts to resist sinking.  To fix the issue with Allerton abbey they installed a horizontal dead man log between the posts, at ground level.

Todd's ground is pretty rocky.  It doesn't seem that posts should be able to sink in much.  The bedrock is limestone.  Paul advocates decent sized rocks (which Todd already has) and gravel in a deep hole to allow any water to drain away from the pole, then infill around the pole with more gravel.

Relevant Threads

Wofati engineering questions for Paul - real world applications and experience

the first wofati - allerton abbey- version 0.7
Wofati and Earth Berm forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 2 of a 2 part podcast

Continuing the discussion about challenges of building communities.

The subject of government interference arises.  Julia has issues with trying to form a community, as the local government is paranoid about cults.

Paul feels there are people whose lives are empty and if they came to boot camp they might re-invent themselves.  Some people have indeed done this, but there must be more.  He also believes some people have arrived at boot camp as a refuge form the nastiness in the world.  People who bring nastiness to boot camp get sent down the road.  Kay feels that one good thing about Paul's place is that it feels safe.

Judgment is discussed.  People tend to say "don't judge me" or "don't be judgmental" but you have to have judgment in order to run a community, because the community has standards and those have to be maintained.  It comes back to obey-or-else again.  Paul refuses to compromise on his standards and as a result people call him an asshole.

Kay brings up the point that when people start at boot camp there's a rule which resists changing things based on what a newcomer suggests or says.  Paul says this started when Des was high commander; he told people "please go with the flow for the first two weeks".  This prevents people arriving and immediately claiming that everything is being done wrong and demanding that it be changed.  Willow feeders are a great example of something people think is wrong.  There are now 6 guidelines for new boots.

Ash starts a new point.  A thing in the to-dos in Thorns are nobility filters.  Ash is interested to know what filters might be useful.  Paul says that you don't find out who is truly noble until the shit hits the fan, at which point 5% step up.  Paul wants a system to work with the top 60% of people and get them to be more delightful more of the time.  Often self-selection is the best filter: make it easier to get out than to get in.

Paul has an idea for if the boot camp gets full:  There could be base-camp boots and lab boots; new boots would join base-camp, and lab would take in boots from base-camp rather than directly.

Paul raises the point that in the words of Ernie Wisner: "The captain dines alone".  Paul would love to join in at every meal but it doesn't work; having the ultimate boss at the table restricts people.  He does join in on taco tuesday however.  

Relevant Threads

permaculture thorns, A Book About Trying to Build Permaculture Community - draft eBook

community design philosophies for imperfect humans - permaculture thorns

Intentional community forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 1 of a 2 part podcast

The topic is challenges of building a community.

Paul thinks only about 1% in the US want to live in an intentional community.  

They talk about Paul's book Permaculture Thorns which is a common thing people want to talk about.  It's basically an attempt at a recipe to get good people together in a community.

Also in the podcast is Ash Jackson who set out to do much of what Paul does, then found that Paul had already done it.  He mentions that he's glad not to have experienced some of the negative aspects.

Paul says that Thorns, and everything he's written since, doesn't actually have the answer to building communities, but he feels that he's closer to solving it than he was when he wrote Thorns.

Paul says the average price of a homestead in Montana is now over 1½ million dollars; so it's extremely hard for anyone to get started in homesteading, as they have to service a million dollar mortgage.  It's not possible to do that with income from a homestead.  Paul asks Samantha about it; she says she doesn't even try to make money from the land, the value is in the quality of food and life she has.

When it comes to his community, sometimes there are still problems which means the recipe still needs work.  He talks about the permies.com online community which although it's online, has many of the same issues, and may provide insight into how to make a successful physical community.

Ash asks if Paul feels that many people are so broken they can't fit into any community.  Paul feels that programmed or conditioned are better terms than broken, and the community builders need to find a way to overcome that.

Paul says that having rules gives bad guys traction.  This is why the only rule on permies.com is "be nice".  Kay says when you have rules people become lawyers to work the rules in their favor and the worst people are often best at that.

Relevant Threads

permaculture thorns, A Book About Trying to Build Permaculture Community - draft eBook

community design philosophies for imperfect humans - permaculture thorns

Intentional community forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 3 of a 3 part podcast.

Paul et al continue about ideas to change the world.  Or not.

Continuing the discussion about community living.  Paul feels community living could be important but getting the community right is the trick.  

Paul is asked about nice vs kind.  When you sign up on permies, there's just one rule: "be nice".  Being kind is different.  Being kind implies patience and understanding.

The point is raised about cooling your house, there are several suggestions.  Paul mentions that really big trees generate coolness on a hot day. The WOFATI is really good.  RMHs also can help with cooling, and indeed any mass.  Paul mentions that they are growing a lot of fruit trees around the house which makes a difference.

Paul brings up the subject of 350.org, which advocates for restricting atmospheric CO2.  They have a big list of things people can do, many of which  have been mentioned already.  He mentions a guy in Colorado who is dedicated to fighting fracking.  Paul suggested that using gas to heat your home wasn't that best.  He also mentions the amount of wood stoves that are sold.

The problem with people is that you have to feed stuff in small doses.  The playing cards were designed for that but they came out more expensive than he had hoped.

Relevant Threads

350.org website

Infographic to consider the best heat - all costs
Rocket Mass Heaters forum

Permaculture Playing Cards

WOFATI Eco Building

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard

Listen Online
Download

Get all of the Podcasts in convenient, giant zip files
Subscribe on iTunes

Summary

part 2 of a 3 part podcast

Continuing "being angry at good guys", or "things to do which improve the world"

The crew discuss food value of freshly picked fruit and vegetables, vs store-bought.  Store-bought veg is bred for shelf life, even organic vegetables, and the food value inevitably suffers as a result.

Next: "don't fly on a plane."  Especially, private jets.  But just "don't fly" isn't the only answer; it depends on circumstances.  For some purposes, driving is worse than flying for example.

At the top of Paul's list is "grow your own food", next is "rocket mass heaters".  People tend to talk big about heat pumps, but heat pumps are only good compared with direct heating in various forms.  

The mass in the RMH also helps with cooling in summer.

The next topic is "community living". The benefits of community living, in the right community, are great.  Of course you need the right community; but in a good community you can cut your living costs and your global impact footprint.  The point is made that neighborhoods used to be a thing even in urban areas, but now that's largely disappearing.  Paul relates his experience at Mt Spokane where the neighbors were a mixed bag, and eventually he ended up moving away.

Relevant Threads

Podcast 549 - Getting Permaculture Apples into Safeway - Part 1, Part 2

Infographic to consider the best heat - all costs

Urban Community forum

Support the Empire

Help support the empire and get all of the podcasts in a bundle here in the digital market at permies.

To support production of these podcasts, make a donation here at Paul's Patreon page.



This podcast was made possible thanks to:

Dr. Hugh Gill Kultur
Kyle Aster
Sasquatch
Bill Crim
G Cooper
Mehron Kugler
Bill Erickson
Julia Winter, world's slowest mosaic artist
Sean Benedict
Rita Bliden
Brent Lawson
Song Zheng
Dana Martin
David Lucey
Janelle
thomas adams
Clay McGowan
Shay Riggs
Dr. Jackie
Keith Kuhnsman
Cindi Duehmig
Banter Couch
Eric Tolbert
Paul Tipper
Paul F
Gerald Bernard