• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Haasl
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Carla Burke
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Jay Angler
  • Leigh Tate
  • thomas rubino

Corn and poultry

 
pollinator
Posts: 933
Location: France
10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Our vet also told us about the full digestability issue. He said that it important in cold weather especially that they got the nutrients from their food quickly, otherwise their system burns energy breaking the grains - energy they need to keep warm. So he recommended 'cracking' all the feed grains. Our birds, goats, sheep, and pigs therefore all have rolled barley and the birds also have wheat that has been soaked for 12 hrs before they get it (sometimes we forget to do the soaking but they are always fed their wheat in a bowl of water). I guess that bit makes sense if you follow the line of "well who would crack the grains for them in the wild?" - the grains would be well soaked by winter weather and therefore soft for digestion.
 
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

CJin VT wrote:

permaguy Hatfield wrote: Oaks...need griding
Hony Locust :...need griding...
Chestnust :...need drying and griding
Berry :...need drying to store

I'm no aware of any nuts that chicken self-harvest,

so i guess corn is my storable winter carbs




Um, doesn't corn need drying and grinding for chickens? Why eliminate those other fodders when the requirements are the same?



See? I repeat my original question!
 
Posts: 192
Location: SW of France
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:

CJin VT wrote:

permaguy Hatfield wrote: Oaks...need griding
Hony Locust :...need griding...
Chestnust :...need drying and griding
Berry :...need drying to store

I'm no aware of any nuts that chicken self-harvest,

so i guess corn is my storable winter carbs




Um, doesn't corn need drying and grinding for chickens? Why eliminate those other fodders when the requirements are the same?



See? I repeat my original question!



Read again my answers, their are other requirements or disadvantages to other crops

I think corn is a good crop for storable energy crop in a homesteading situation,

There is an advantage to decompose a maximum food offered to poultry, cause it can compose more easily the mixture to need its needs. I think it is a good thing to have a high energy/ low protein crop for winter, cause poultry can eat the amount it needs, adapted to the temperatures. Persimmon is a great permanent crop for this, and i try to extend a maximum the season, but it no stand through all winter.

Beside corn, i try also to find crop that are more balanced in their protein/energy content, i work on an app to compose menus and see if it meet poultry needs

The goal is to compose several menus, for laying hen or broilers; for spring, summer, etc; that can be grown for the next year or based on trees, etc ...


A preview :
annual_feed_poultry.png
[Thumbnail for annual_feed_poultry.png]
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You might be over thinking it with your app.
How much foraging can the chickens do during the winter?
 
Alison Thomas
pollinator
Posts: 933
Location: France
10
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lots. Guy is further south than us and we've only had our FIRST frost of the winter today! Snow is unusual. They still forage all day 8am to 6pm.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ah ha!

Well, I go back to my original suggestions and I'll add that berries and things don't need drying if you leave them on the tree/shrub/vine. Let them forage for much of their food, give them scraps, and they should only need a small amount of grain.
 
Posts: 1114
Location: Mountains of Vermont, USDA Zone 3
63
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Guy De Pompignac wrote:i'm designing my poultry feed system, and i want to include corn as a storable carb for winter



I'm no expert with corn since it doesn't grow well on our land (we're in the mountains of northern Vermont). However we do winter over a significant number of chickens each winter. We feed them meat. Each week we slaughter pigs for market so there are scraps left over and these help the chickens get through the winter when the pastures are buried under deep snows. Come spring the chickens will range back out to the pastures and thrive on the insects and forages there. Until then they make do eating meat. The meat has fat in it. We also provide them with veggie scraps, hay, water, whey (we feed dairy to our pigs), a light, oyster shells, egg shells and minerals/dirt. Occasionally they get some bread. It works and they keep laying all winter long at close to the summer production rates. Doing it this way we don't have to buy commercial feed or grain.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
 
Guy De Pompignac
Posts: 192
Location: SW of France
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Alison Freeth-Thomas wrote:Lots. Guy is further south than us and we've only had our FIRST frost of the winter today! Snow is unusual. They still forage all day 8am to 6pm.



we had frosts since october, we even had snow one day,
yes they forage a lot but what cab be obtained from the land at this season ? even in summer pastures only provide 10-30% of their needs
 
Guy De Pompignac
Posts: 192
Location: SW of France
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Cj Verde wrote:Ah ha!

Well, I go back to my original suggestions and I'll add that berries and things don't need drying if you leave them on the tree/shrub/vine. Let them forage for much of their food, give them scraps, and they should only need a small amount of grain.



I"m curious to read your list, of species that are at this moment hanging fruits on their branches. I only see persimmon here, and i presume they will not last forever
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Guy De Pompignac wrote:
I"m curious to read your list, of species that are at this moment hanging fruits on their branches. I only see persimmon here, and i presume they will not last forever



A better idea would be to take some hikes in forested areas near you. My area is much, much harsher. It is currently -8°f (-22c) at 9am. There are still wild grapes, hawthorns, honeylocust pods in the trees. I left some beans on the trellis and the chickens will pick at them now that the gate to the is left open. There are areas they can still scratch the ground, look for things amongst the fallen leaves like bugs or acorns. They scratch around the cow/sheep poop for snacks.

I have pumpkins in the house and will sometimes cut one up for them.

Enough wild birds here are surviving the winter by foraging to make it to spring. With a little help from us our birds can do more than just survive.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You might want to check out Tree Crops.

If you download the pdf there is a chapter on Chestnuts, which the author calls The Corn Tree. I did think of you because he mentions drying the chestnuts to help preserve them but I'm still not sure if that's necessary for animal consumption. The case against corn is very clear.

There is one argument for corn. It is a great and destructive argument. The plant is annual. The labor of the husbandman is quickly rewarded. The ruin of his farm comes later.
As between corn and chestnuts as types of mountain agriculture, the labor cost appears to be plainly in favor of the chestnut, but there is that pesky time element.



There is even is subchapter titled:
THE CHESTNUT FIELD IN THE SYSTEMATIC FRENCH FARM
 
Guy De Pompignac
Posts: 192
Location: SW of France
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know Tree Crops, very inspiring book,

for chestnuts, i'll try next autumn, but without drying, i feat not only worms, but also mold

Corn is destructive the white way, not the indian way
 
Posts: 111
Location: Midwest zone 6
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There is a lot of variability in the toughness of corn's seed coat. Conventional US field corn is not selected for digestibility. Cultivars intended for human consumption will work better. Bloody Butcher is a variety of corn I like. Mature birds with a gizzard can grind corn. Pullets might require a milled ration.

You say you want to feed whole ears. My question is how do you avoid the chickens wasting half of it?

It's kinda fun to shell corn with your bare hands if you're spending a lot of time sitting indoors anyway.
 
Posts: 587
8
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
They won't waste it if you feed whole ears. They will slowly but surely eat every last kernel.

You might also think about fermenting your corn before feeding....chickens are a monogastric animal and cannot absorb some of the nutrients in corn in its natural state but fermenting can change those nutrients into something they can utilize. Does no good to feed corn when most of it's coming out the backside and on the ground.

Save yourself some money and time and provide more nutrition per bite by fermenting any grains you are feeding to chickens or pigs.



 
Posts: 26
Location: Idaho, 43rd parallel Zone 6A
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Now this is not a perma way but if you are buying feed why not try Sprouting and you can do it all year.

here are some links if don't know about sprouting

http://www.peakprospe...

http://www.earthineer...

http://www.youtube.co...
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Why isn't it a "perma way?"
 
Travis Day
Posts: 26
Location: Idaho, 43rd parallel Zone 6A
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well it would be if you were to grow the grains yourself.
 
Cj Sloane
pollinator
Posts: 3738
Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!
103
dog duck fungi trees books chicken bee solar
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think if it's "acceptable" to purchase seeds for growing or grain for feeding then you could purchase them for sprouting. Self sufficiency is a great goal to work towards.

We may be veering slightly OT unless we're talking about sprouting corn. Do people do that?
 
Travis Day
Posts: 26
Location: Idaho, 43rd parallel Zone 6A
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes corn can be sprouted
 
Yeah, but how did the squirrel get in there? Was it because of the tiny ad?
100th Issue of Permaculture Magazine - now FREE for a while
https://permies.com/goodies/45/pmag
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic