bob day

Geoff Lawton remembers a time when working in remote places required traveling distances to get to a phone or fax and how the new technologies have advanced Permaculture with instantaneous access to information and communication.

Bill talked about sending  a couple hippie chicks ahead of their crews using an a frame leveling device each morning, and following them with machines to establish contour plowing on a very broad scale, and now machines can practically do all that work of several people and many extra days just by navigating with geo satellites and automatic leveling.

Keeping up to date with AI and how it is being trained is very much going to be part of our future whether we like it or not. The question is only are we going to be aware and literate regarding these powerful new technologies, or simply pretend they don't exist and try and will them away while hoeing our gardens.

I'll only answer the Full Self Driving  question  with an observation. Tesla started this quest many years ago with thousands of " labelers " millions of miles worth of video and countless advances and setbacks Recently (in the last year or so  they got their first super computer up and running with a neural net and the video data from those million(billion) miles of tesla fleet data and without labellers or specific instructions that Artificial Intelligence started driving more like a human in a matter of months not years.. The more miles added and the more advanced the super computers become the better they drive the cars.

With Players like Musk heavily investing in expanding that "Compute" power, doubling it every 6 months or so the "intelligence" there will have safer driving vehicles than humans in the next year or so. After that the question only becomes how much safer does it have to become before NHTSA  allows it to drive, then insurance and regulations are the main issue.

We can attempt to isolate our Permaculture and not participate in these advances, but I am at least observing these things while I play in my gardens.

I do use machinery--primarily my backhoe, and have set up several swales and ponds that become better each year. I've probably planted close to a thousand trees along those swales to try and diversify the forests here with Persimmons, plums, willows, red buds, ...

The gully that used to run like a river after a heavy rain and dry out after a few days, now holds back almost all the water that falls above the swales and I even have some catfish that have managed to survives even during extended droughts. My figs finally really produced well last summer after many years of struggling, my blueberries produced well again this year and each year I put in a few new plants. The grape vines are doing quite well, but my trellises could use some help and the vines will likely get pruned this year in an attempt to get them trained on better trellises.

My koi ponds are a  joy( if not quite related to Permaculture),  And their biofilters are a great experiment in using nothing but small pumps running  on batteries and solar cells. I'm currently using the biofilters mostly for rushes, reeds, ornamentals, but experiments with herbs and tomatoes etc are ongoing.

I am playing with soil supplements to try and increase production--rock phosphate, lime, fish wastes, in other parts of some gardens, also playing with over wintering several tender varieties-- tomatoes, tumeric, ginger, cayennes, lemon grass, etc etc.

I finally decided some nectarines, a peach tree, gooseberries, blackberries, and a couple others had outlived their use, or needed relocation from a garden close to the door, and plan on another biofilter there that will hopefully be more productive with more useful and easier crops. The trees could be beautiful, but late frosts have denied me fruit, every year, and this year the peaches that survived for the first time in seven years actually all brown rotted.

They were mostly experimental anyway, still I have hesitated to reclaim the space and sun until recently. I've already taken out a japanese plum and yucca plant, and as soon as I get the backhoe back up and running I'll be taking out the other two+ yuccas, the nectarines and gooseberries. I probably won't dig up the Peach right away, although I probably should, it has already been heavily cut off, and I may still play with it keeping it to more of a minor experiment than the overwhelming sun hog it became.

Oh, and my own recent experiments with new tech has been buying some Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries to replace the lead acid banks as they  age out. The batteries are actually getting cheaper than lead, and the hope is they will be more durable with less maintenance.  And for those who haven't been keeping up with the lithium tech, yes , these batteries are just as recyclable as lead, with numerous centers already set up, and one of the biggest drawbacks is they are not failing as quickly as people thought, so there is a shortage of batteries to recycle.

I know there's other stuff I could talk about--clear cutting the pulp wood pines on the other side of the creek and using the proceeds to totally swale the area and plant a more diversified forest instead of the monocrop that was there when I started.

So much fun to have the hardest part is knowing where to start.

Remember, if you're not having fun, you've got the design wrong.

First of all I don't know if any of this will resonate with anyone, because I may have a somewhat unique vantage point, as well as a unique attitude, so I'll ask to have this considered as a possible outcome for all these very "non sustainable" ventures, and how they might fit into Permaculture--eventually.

Some of you may have noticed Tesla and Elon Musk and likely there's even an X community of Permaculture people. And an idea is coming to me as I am watching articles on His new super computer with XAI.

Now I understand that Bill would have us abandon the "car crate" and just dwell on the land, and that idea is very appealing, so I understand the idea of transitioning to electrical transport may seem like an unnecessary detour  simply encouraging people to believe the idea that speedy personal transport in and out of misc eco systems/localities  is a good thing.

Advances in misc technical apparatus/tools will ultimately be of no use to us and we will simply wander around like innocent children harvesting our food, in perfect harmony with the earth.

Now I like that idea, and 10 years into my practice of Permaculture it is more of a religion with three simple ethics than any other spiritual concepts I have ever tested.

This is a pretty lengthy buildup to present the idea that all of these tremendous advances seemingly moving toward the Jetsons rather than the garden of Eden may actually be a major advance on the road to a truly sustainable future.

Cars are almost driving themselves already, adapting to detours, misc pedestrians, and all the other stupid human tricks people can throw at them. The new Grok AI will be increasing it's  intelligence by leaps and bounds. Musk predicts it will encompass all Human knowledge and thought power around 2028--that's right, even your ideas about food forests, dams, etc etc may be included in that knowledge.

Thousands of robots will be walking around doing factory jobs by 2027 (some are already doing productive work in Musk's factory). How long will it be before people really don't have to work at all. Even the dream of installing small dams through the entire length of the Mississippi River to totally slow, spread and soak the worst possible floods could be made feasible if the robots can be taught to understand what is really necessary.

Plant and care for very well thought out food forests and natural forests changing weather patterns lessening the need for wasteful resource consumption with out dated harvesting techniques--drones that daily scan forests and pick only the ripe fruit. Smaller diverse orchards and fields precisely managed by tireless workers(robots) while we paint and sculpt or meditate, and make love.

It is easy to say humans can do all these jobs and robots will just confuse the issue, let us just do our Permaculture in peace.  The question I would ask is do you really see humans doing all these things in the next several years?

I mean we are already seeing wonderful exchanges of ideas here on Permies, and much of that is possible by use of AI (primitive as it may be at times). Imagine asking a question and having it answered immediately in a precise and thoughtful way. Even just having a search engine that could understand complex Permaculture concepts and direct us to the posts that deal with the topic. (I haven't used the search engine here recently, too many memories of futile attempts to communicate with the robots here) Whether  we think these advances are good or bad they are coming and most of us are still deeply entwined with them (whether we know it or not)

It is somewhat difficult to imagine, but try, a world where everything is available for free and money becomes obsolete.

I'm not suggesting we should sit back on our laurels, waiting for the future, just that these developments are here, and we may have little say about whether they will happen, just suggest that nothing is forbidden in Permaculture and it's more a question of how we use these new tools.

All that is left is giving proper information to our robot overlords, so they have an idea of what is possible (and necessary) for us to continue living a sustainable existence here on this beautiful blue marble.  :-)

great article, thanks for the effort to find it and sharing it.

There are lots of variations on the overarching theme of hugelculture. and using wood of any kind /size will use nitrogen to break it down.  Even in a more normal hugel culture with sizeable chunks of wood, there will be a breaking in period where the soil will be providing nitrogen and bacteria / fungus to decompose the wood.

I think about hugelculture when I have what might normally be used as a burn pile and then bury the wood out of sight recycling the wood in a less destructive way, getting the wood out of sight  with the future plan of coming back to the area with better soil and a bed to grow in.

An ongoing business producing a "waste" stream starts to look more like a permaculture opportunity where I would think a little longer about other possibilities.

depending on quantities of sawdust, type, etc, there might be other more "profitable" ways to use the sawdust, mushroom growing being the first possibility that comes to mind .   https://fungi.com/


If you do just want to get rid of the sawdust, remember that oxygen, water and nitrogen are key ingredients in the breakdown process,  Large compost piles, frequently turned with manure added and fine topsoil and heat coming out as a product might also be a way to go.  

Again, it depends on the specifics of your situation, but hugel culture with large masses of plain sawdust dumped as a lump and then covered with soil sounds like a losing proposition. At least mix the sawdust in with the soil as you refill the hole so there is some air and water penetration, through the whole thing - some nitrogen waste will speed up the rehab process.

When it comes to birds, there's lots of ways to attract them-suet through the winter to attract and keep insectivores, then stop feeding after the birds have settled in.   Just routine seed feeding is more for a hobby bird watcher, since seed attracts rodents and is not particularly specific about attracting the bug eaters

just a regular T  pole where ever you want extra fertilizer-- birds will perch there while they survey the ground for predators and food, then poop as they take off--T pole  can be moved as needed

Don't forget bat boxes and  bird baths, but keep an eye out for predators possibly taking advantage-- snakes can be a real issue

https://www.gardenmyths.com/growing-under-walnut-trees/

https://extension.psu.edu/landscaping-and-gardening-around-walnuts-and-other-juglone-producing-plants
Two nice articles to help solve the juglone mystery

Another couple facts that may help

walnuts and grass get along, grass is pretty hostile to most fruit trees,  grass prefers  a greater bacterial content in the soil---bacterial content in the soil usually indicates  lower ph-higher acidity

most trees thrive in a more fungal soil,

black walnut is a primary anti fungal herb medicinally--useful for athletes foot, candida, parasites--- also as a spray for different tree diseases--generally attributed to it's high iodine content

note that i did not refer to juglone specifically, but in reading through the "growing..." link, it appears that there may be other compounds besides juglone responsible for some of the observed effects

another fact that Bill referred to was the ability to use mulberry trees as an intermediary tree between walnuts and other trees that might otherwise not grow in the vicinity  of walnuts

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Koi (disambiguation).
Koi fish
Conservation status
Domesticated
Scientific classification Edit this classification
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Actinopterygii
Order: Cypriniformes
Family: Cyprinidae
Genus: Cyprinus
Species: C. carpio
Variety: C. c. var. "koi"
Trinomial name
Cyprinus carpio var. "koi"
Linnaeus, 1758


Koi (鯉, English: /ˈkɔɪ/, Japanese: [koꜜi]) or more specifically nishikigoi (錦鯉, Japanese: [ɲiɕi̥kiꜜɡoi], literally "brocaded carp") are colored varieties of the common carp (Cyprinus carpio) that are kept for decorative purposes in outdoor koi ponds or water gardens.

Koi is an informal name for the colored variants of C. carpio kept for ornamental purposes. There are many varieties of ornamental koi, originating from breeding that began in Niigata, Japan in the early 19th century.[1][2][3]

Several varieties are recognized by the Japanese, distinguished by coloration, patterning, and scalation. Some of the major colors are white, black, red, orange, yellow, blue, brown and cream, besides metallic shades like gold and silver-white ('platinum') scales. The most popular category of koi is the Gosanke, which is made up of the Kōhaku, Taishō Sanshoku and Shōwa Sanshoku varieties.
History
Carp are a large group of fish originally found in Central Europe and Asia. Various carp species were originally domesticated in China, where they were used as food fish. Carp are coldwater fish, and their ability to survive and adapt to many climates and water conditions allowed the domesticated species to be propagated to many new locations, including Japan.

As far as humanure, it should be either well composted in a hot pile with frequent turning, or left to stand for two years to get rid of any possible disease organisms. humanure handbook and videos

The Pond Guy is a great resource for ponds.

It has turned into an addiction for me so be careful :-)

caution ponds and fish are addictive

I have actually been playing with biofilters now for a couple years and a few fish a couple small pumps no mosquitoes.  The link is intended as a research starter,  have fun and don't feel obligated to spend lots of money, there's all sorts of work arounds.

Mosquitoes do not like moving water, the larvae eat algae. Also a key food for tadpoles, so you already have some competition for resources.
Lemon scented plants seem most effective at repelling adult mosquitoes. lemon thyme, lemon sage, lemon grass, but the disclaimer is I don't know what the effects on frogs might be but I suspect minimal.
there are nice little submersible pumps for 10-20 bucks that run on 12 volt dc current if you want to entertain the possibility of a waterfall or fountain.

The aerator mentioned earlier is also one way to keep the water from being stagnant.

There are diy traps that use a black sock and soda bottle half full of water.  I'm a little rusty on the measurements etc, but the idea is to cut a hole in the side of the bottle, cover the whole thing with the sock, and push the sock into the hole so the water level is right about at sock level. mosquitoes lay their eggs, larvae swim around inside the bottle but then can't get out when they turn into adults.

Here's a link that has a version of the bottle trap as well as a couple others.

mosquito traps

Hi Christine,

My best guess would be not to mess around with earth bags as a structural support. A normal concrete foundation, then adjust the exterior containment membrane to the height  required.  A cement dome of this size is a lot of weight, Uneven settling on top of earth bags could be a serious problem re: cracks and stability.

If you then wanted to add insulation with earthbags they could be laid against inside or outside of dome.

If you wanted to just use the concrete dome as a roof structure, that's a whole other animal, and likely better served by more conventional solutions-joists or trusses. The attractiveness of these domes is the simplicity and relative structural integrity/ durability all in one, when you start mixing and matching structural elements you lose the formulas that make it work in the first place