Ben Van Der Kar

Thanks to the clarification and inspiration gained from attending Permaculture Voices, I've been thinking about things through a different scope. Standing in the backyard this afternoon I was thinking about how a 'keypoint' is essentially a place where there is a higher concentration of water. Applying keyline design to the keypoints enables you to more effectively manage and control water so that it slows, spreads, and sinks across the landscape, instead of rushing aimlessly to the nearest gutter.

While my understanding is that keyline design was developed and tailored more towards larger, sloping landscapes, I believe that keyline design can be applied on a smaller scale. In a residential setting, we can collect water from our roofs, parking lots, etc. These points of collection can serve as keypoints. From the keypoints, swale-like mulch basins can transport excess water throughout the landscape. In essence, this is a rain garden, but one which more intentionally applies keyline design.

Until this realization, I'd been slightly dismayed by having such a flat yard to work with. I think this was partly due to much of my looking into water harvesting/storage was more applicable to sloping landscapes. While I'd felt competent in my understanding of how to manage water in sloped landscapes, managing water on flatlands has been a bit of a grey area for me. But with today's epiphany, I am feeling as if flatlands allow for a looser prescription of water harvesting/storage practices. Sloped landscapes beckon for contour lines, swales, and keypoint ponds, whereas in the flatlands, I think the designer has more discretion as far as where to direct water and how to manage it.

I understand that the house is full which is great. As a young permie looking to soak up as much as I can, I would love the opportunity to stop by the house to share a meal or just chit chat. I'll be sure to bring lots of avocados, lemons, goat cheese and whatever else is ripe to share!

This post has been slumbering for a while but I just came across it and thought I'd chime in.
Firstly, I hope all is going well with establishing polycultures on your land Abe! I don't know how common frosts are in your area but I remember having read that citrus, guavas, lavender and aloe make a good guild. Lavender I'm sure because it is an insectory plant and the rest I reckon go well together because they have different root structures that allow them to co-exist without competing with one another. Can anyone else think of reasons as to why this would be a good guild? Hope this helps.

I believe this video clip, and better yet, a full-length documentary may be pivotal in convincing my family to move our commercial operation in a polyculture/permaculture direction. A most worthy of causes! There's nothing like solid evidence to make a case. Please support this thing errbody!

Much appreciated Matu! And I'm glad you left that part out.

Your farm sounds fun, I would love to see such mature blueberry bushes! My neighbors have rented land to Driscolls for a while now and at first they planted it all with strawberries, then raspberries, but a few years ago they put in blueberries and I've been surprised by how thick some of the trunks have gotten already. It sounds as if nature has already bestowed you with a nice polyculture between the wild strawberries, yarrow and clovers but I'll bet you could do even better with an intentional polyculture. Definitely in the same boat as you as far as not wanting to bite off too big a chunk and also not wanting to mess up a good thing. I guess some say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." But then again, there's always room for improvement.

Just put my 'google goggles' on to check out blueberry guilds and this permies thread was the first hit, maybe you've seen it already: https://permies.com/t/14249/plants/guild-ideas-blueberries

As for your question, by and large we are not (yet) organic. To elaborate, there are eight properties that make up the family business, ranging from just a few acres to 200 acres. One of the smaller properties is a bit of an island in that it is sandwiched between a creek and two highways, with several homes nearby. As such, the use of certain pesticides and fertilizers is already quite limited so a few years back my uncle decided to make an experiment out of it and convert it to an organic, spreading manure as fertilizer and using a weedwacker for weeds instead of roundup. This property is mostly planted to avocados and as we sell our avos to Calavo, my uncle had to deal with the organic certification process in order to receive the premium price that organic avos command.

I would like to interrupt myself here to mention that one driving reason that I would like to see us utilizing direct marketing channels (farmer market, CSA, wholesale to restaurants, mail order, etc) is so that I won't have to put up with all the regulation that goes along with selling our produce to a big middleman such as Calavo or Sunkist. The organic certification process and the GAP program (good agricultural practices) are just several examples of many regulations that you must abide by in order to market crops through middlemen. I would much prefer to directly market produce at organic prices without having to deal with the expenditures that come with organic certification. And if a customer wanted to verify that the product they're purchasing is indeed organic, I would invite them for a farm tour to see for themselves. While the price for organic avos does justify having to put up with the organic certification, it's something I'd rather not have to deal with.

Back to the question on inputs: Our plant food (fertilizer) consists of an N, P, K salt & pepper mix (they call it this because it looks like large granules of salt and pepper) which we spread by hand around the trees once a year, generally after the harvest. The way I see it, this diet we have our orchards on is like fast food McDonalds. And I must say I am surprised at how healthy most of the orchards look with this in consideration. I am certain however, that a more wholesome, 'organic' diet would be much better. Roundup is what we use for herbicide which really sucks as I would not like to think of myself or the family business supporting anything monsanto in any way. Fortunately not much is used because most of the orchards are so mature that not enough sunlight gets through for weeds, but that is no excuse. I'd have to double check the specifics on pesticide and fungicide. I want to say we do not use any fungicide but like I said, I'll have to double check. As for pesticide, AgriMek is one we use. Our main pests are Thripps and Perseamite. The Light Brown Apple Moth and especially the Asian Citrus Psyllid which carries a disease called Huanglongbing (HLB) are of future concern.

We have a very fortunate labor situation. Despite most growers in our area using labor crews for picking and pruning (which has been very stressful for some as labor crews have become increasingly scarce), my family has been successful in employing roughly a dozen full time Mexican laborers (hence the previous mentioning that I'm studying Spanish in school). While we will employ additional people as needed during harvest, pruning, etc, our full time employees all live on one of the family ranches. This adds security as there is nearly always someone on the property when otherwise there wouldn't be but it also makes for more of a connection between the employee and the orchard they care for. To contrast, contracted labor crews are notorious for doing lesser quality work as they have no personal ties to the property, trees, aesthetics, etc. Our production of cherimoyas is essential in our ability to employ a year-round workforce. Cherimoyas are harvested in the winter months when otherwise we would not have enough work to justify maintaining such a workforce. Hand-pollination of the cherimoyas also necessitates such a workforce.

So that should give you a bit of an idea as to what I'm working with. I'm happy to answer any other questions and would also love any thoughts or advice.

Thanks,
Ben

Thanks for sharing the pix Charles! Visuals are always nice. And it certainly looks as if what you've done is working. Do you plan to plant the space between the rock exterior and the raised bed?

That seems like a good summation of the benefits of hugelkultur, thank you James! I'm especially glad you pointed out the orientation of soild on hugelbeds towards the sun. I hadn't thought of that aspec and I'm sure it makes a significant difference especially during the winter months when the sun is lower in the sky.

I guess my curiosity towards a terraced hugelbed stems from my skepticism that little to no irrigation is necessary for hugel. I've been wanting to build a hugel ever since I heard of it on here. However as I'm still living with the parents, mother isn't sold yet on the thought of having a big hugelmound in the backyard. As such I've found myself digging some pretty deep holes so I can bury wood and end up with a groundlevel bed.

I took a PDC this past summer and believe it or not, the instructor had never heard of hugelkultur!! I made sure to change this and encourage the rest of the class to check it out

Thinkin I might still like to experiment with a terraced hugelbed although I am now more at ease with the structure of a traditional hugel.

Yes, marketing is sure to be either a great friend or foe in this transition towards a more sustainable operation. With the local avocado, lemon and cherimoya market pretty flooded already, I am looking to the incorporation of things that would make for easy marketing. I think the inclusion of a perennial understory of plants that can be dried for use in loose-leaf teas (roman chamomile, mints, lemon balm, lemon verbena, anise hyssop, etc) would make for a good use of space and a profitable/marketable product as there are no local tea sources currently in my area. The other venture I foresee as being potentially viable is a goat milk/cheese operation. I already have several dairy goats for personal consumption and when we've had excess milk/cheese in the past, we've never had trouble finding a home for it. This potential venture appeals to me because it would bring quick, consistent returns and there is little competition for this market in my area.

I certainly am the grasshopper and have been for a while now as I've spent the past few summers assisting my uncle with the farm operations. My hope is to learn as much as possible about what he has done to make for a successful farm, all the while conveying my sentiments that I won't be content on the farm without a little room to wiggle and introduce some low-risk additions (i.e. what I mentioned in the previous paragraph).

With one semester of school left (this spring, studying Spanish and AgBusiness) my goal is to continue in observation mode, particularly researching how we can best slowly but surely convert orchards away from industrial style management towards a more organic, sustainable management style.

On another note, anyone know how to change thread titles? I would like to take Dale's suggestion as, "Thoughts on alley cropping" seems a bit misleading for where this thread is going.

So it is my understanding that the recommendation is to construct steep and narrow hugelkultur beds to allow for more plantable space. Are there any other reasons for this?
The reason I ask is because I'm having a hard time picturing much water retention from a very steep surface. As I live where the average rainfall is about 18 inches, when it rains and when I irrigate, I want the water to be able to soak in as much as possible. For that reason I have recently constructed some sunken garden beds so that the water doesn't migrate elsewhere.

So what if I were to pile the wood of my hugel in a way that there are little steps/terraces going up the hugel instead of being steep? In my mind this sounds more effective because water coming down would have a better chance at soaking into the bed before sliding down and away. What do you all think?

Thank you all for your responses and warm welcomes!

Dale – I hadn’t heard of alley cropping until recently and it has really sparked my curiosity. As far as I can tell it has mostly been implemented in the tropics so there is plenty more room for experimentation in other climates. I like your title suggestion but am not sure how I would go about changing the title.

Miles – Certainly a discussion-worthy topic. I’ve been disappointed in the past reading or hearing that permaculture is just for small scale operations. I think this has been assumed because there are so few examples of permaculture on a large scale. I intend to post pictures as progress is made but for now I’m mostly observing and trying to figure the best way to go about tackling my situation.

R Scott – You have a good point, coppicing would probably entail more inputs. Another thing with the alley cropping is that you’re devoting a significant amount of space to something other than your cash crop. While I think it important to note that the NFTs used for alley cropping are mainly designated for chop and drop mulch to feed surrounding plantings, in some places, NFTs such as Inga Edulis (ice cream bean) are used in alley cropping and provide valuable resources (such as ice cream bean or firewood) on top of being used just for mulch.

Rufus – I appreciate your precautions. I am doing my best to not get carried away and to develop a plan that other stakeholders in the family business can agree with.

Adam – Important questions indeed.
1) It’s hard to say exactly how much control I will have as management of the family biz/farm will be switching from my parents generation to mine in the coming years. Currently things are run by my uncle who is the farm manager and who has done a great job building the family farm into a successful business. His four siblings serve with him as the board of directors, but as none of them work on the farm, they mostly listen to reports from my uncle on how things are going. I am the only family member in my generation to have voiced any significant interest in the business and as such feel it safe to say that I will be in the driver’s seat on this one, so long as I build and maintain a good track record.
2) Yes it is profitable although the operation is vulnerable to a number of things such as pests, disease, water availability, etc which is why I would like to develop some more resiliency. I am being cautious in not changing anything right away while all the way making it clear that I have certain ideas for the future.
3) Marketing is sure to be crucial and I am confident that I’ll be able to use mktg to my advantage. With all of our crops currently sold to larger, non-local markets, the proposition I’m developing is to introduce a new chapter of the business which will focus on local markets and bridging that gap between wholesale and consumer direct.

One of my complications in trying to reduce our outside inputs is that I’m working with properties that have mature plantings with little space for new implementations. Needless to say I am not going to suggest that my family cut down every other row of trees so we can plant some nitrogen fixers. I think the inclusion of polycultures and/or alley cropping will come slowly as old trees die out. But for now if I am to introduce new plants to the existing orchards, they’ll have to be understory, shade-tolerant plants such as coffee or cilantro, which would certainly be a step in the right direction as far as I can tell.

I would be very interested to hear accounts of others converting monocultures into polycultures.

Having gained much insight from browsing permies.com over the past year or so, I am excited to be posting for the first time.

My name is Ben, I’m 22 years of age and my family grows avocados, lemons, and cherimoyas commercially here in Southern California. A few years ago I had the realization that if I did not step up to the plate to manage the family business (upon my uncle’s retirement), that it might dissipate or who knows what. This realization felt burdensome and limiting for some time. Then I found out about permaculture through permies.com. Learning of permaculture and thinking about how its principles could be applied to my situation completely turned the tables and enabled me to think with enthusiasm about my opportunity to manage the family business. For this I owe great thanks to Paul and permies.com for having broadcasted permaculture to people like myself. Who knows where I’d be now had I not learned of permaculture and all it has to offer.

Anywho, I am now in observation mode, trying to learn as much as I can before actually implementing changes. One change that is sure to come is the conversion from commercial style management (i.e. roundup for weed control, application of N,P,K artificial fertilizer) to a more holistic, ‘organic’ style of management. There are a number of ways I could go about this through applying soil amendments and planting polycultures. Just recently however, I heard of SALT (Sloping Agriculture Land Technology) and Alley Cropping. This is a practice that was designed as an alternative to slash and burn agriculture which entails the cultivation of rows of easily coppiced Nitrogen fixing trees planted between rows of the ‘cash crop.’ Each year the row of NFT’s are coppiced (chop and drop style) providing water retention and nutrients for the surrounding cultivars. So while you must sacrifice space for the NFTs, you are generating your fertilizer and mulch on site.

This practice seems to have been a great success in tropical environments and I am curious if anyone on here is familiar with this practice. Essentially, I see this practice as possibly one of the most effective strategies I could implement in the avocado, lemon, and cherimoya orchards. Any thoughts on why this might be a good/bad idea? Any thoughts as to other ways to convert a commercial scale orchard to something more permie-esque?

Thanks,
-Ben