C. Letellier

First thing to look at would be the Korean house heaters.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondol

What if you basically replaced it with your RMH?  Alternately put your heat bell in a basement so it could heat the whole floor and too the bench upstairs .

PS you need to look up how long seeds need to stratify for each variety.  Some only need weeks and refrigerator temps.  Some need months including some freezing time.   Some need warm stratification times on either end too.  So read the information

Here are the ones I know off the top of my head.

Cottonwood, Aspen is no stratification time.  Those seeds are only good for days to a few weeks and need to be germiated immediately.  Seeds appear late spring or early summer.  One lesson learned here is the early fuzz has almost no seeds in it and the few there are mostly not viable.  You want the fuzz towards the end of the season.  You will see way more period size white, gray or even black dots in it.  If the seed has color and isn't just white they seem to be way more viable.  Planting depth is just barely covered and great care needs to be taken to keep them solidly damp but not wet till you get them rooted.


Apple is a month or two at frig temperatures.  Best luck, seeds fresh out of the apple, washed a couple of times and then into H2O2 paper towel immediately.  Germination rate has radically varied between runs.  One bunch of store bought Gaia was about 95%.  The trees that came out of those apples widely varied right from the start.  About 1/4 were purplish leaves like crab apple.  Leaf shapes and sizes varied widely in the rest.  A batch of local wealthy with no other trees within miles to polinate had far fewer seeds in them and germination rate was about 40% of the good looking seeds.(did let all of those dry for days before planting though trying to control mold so that may have hurt me)  

Ash seeds some will germinate with no strat but doing a month or 2 greatly increases germination rate.  Recent reading suggests the seeds that stay on the tree were healthier and are more likely to be viable.  So that was this years run.  Got seeds from 2 batches of trees.  Germination in previous years of ground fall has been maybe 5%.  This year waiting till Jan and harvesting seed off the tree germination was way better at maybe 40%.

Rose seeds needed 2 to 3 months stratification.  Did that one on the bushes.  birds ate a lot of the hips but not all.

Locust have done some strat on all so not sure here but it sounds like from the written stuff that they need scarification not necessarily stratification.  from reading it is suggest that new soils may not provide the proper bacteria for it to learn to nitrogen fix.  So suggest gathering soil as well as seed from near the tree.

Black walnuts supposed to need months.  So far zero luck on these.  Because they are supposed to develop a tap root sometimes if not transplanted I have been doing deep holes of nutrient rich soil and trying to direct sow.  Have tried everything from dried and cleaned nuts to still husked nuts.  Some of the written information suggests that they may take years to germinate and one article suggest to break the nut shell they need freeze thaw action.

Blue spruce needs 1 to 3 months.  Most tried will germ after a month of cool.  Dry the cones out, put in a paper bag and shake really hard to knock seeds out has been the best for gathering.

Other evergreens look up what they need.  Some actually need to be baked to be viable

Maples the needs vary so look up.  Most need at least a month of stratification.  Silver leaf maple is like cottonwood and does fuzz seed in the spring.  Most of the rest are fall seeders.  Some of the more extreme version need 2 to 3 months of stratifications.  Some a couple of weeks.

Lilac was interesting.  Kept finding seed pods but no seeds late.  Finally got lucky and got to watch. The seed pods are full but green until they frost good.  As soon as they frost and warm up that very day the pods all crack and drop the seeds.  This meant I got to them in the morning still frozen and all the pods were there and intact.  By noon that day nearly all of them were curled back with almost no seed in the open pods.  The ones back far enough into the bushes not to frost did not open This means the seeds fall immediately on being frozen and warmed and are quickly buried by the leaf litter as the frost knocks the leaves off shortly after.  They need a frost cycle to cause the pods to open and at least a month of stratification.  So far best luck is to wait till just before frost, cut clusters of seed heads off and freeze over night.  Put in a warm paper sack to dry and open.  Shake hard to rattle the seeds out and then sort seeds from all the debris.  Had better luck with the soil stratification batch.  Germ rate of the paper towel batch was about 30% and the soil batch was closer to 50%  Biggest mistake here was storing the seeds in a sack as I wasn't ready to put in the fridge.  Had almost a cup of seeds.(they are fairly small seeds) and a mouse found the sack and ate most and scattered most of the rest.  

choke cherry needs both scarification and stratification.  At least a month of strat.  Have tried cracking with pliers, sanding, rock tumbler, grinding, slamming repeatedly on concrete.  Rock tumbler is a total loss as the pits float and the abrasive doesn't do much damage.  A full month in the tumber and I could just barely see the damage.  So far best luck was scrubing the fruit off in a collinder, letting dry a bit and  grinding one pit at time held in pliers mostly thru the shell and immediately starting strat.  About 5%.  Don't know what I am doing wrong here.

Finally American Linden.  Lots learned here but almost no success.  Lesson one needs a pollinator.  Big beautiful tree up country from me but if you crack the shells only about 1 in 200 has a single seed in it and none of those grew.  The normal shell can have 2 seeds in it and most will have at least one.  The directions call for abrading, shelling or acid treatment  but don't say if the goal is just the shell or if the actually seed needs scarification too.  I have tried cracking the shell with pliers, no germinations, shelling without damaging the seed inside(2 germinations out of probably 200 seeds)  These are really tough to shell without damaging the seed.  Best shelling seems to be dry them out so the seed shrinks relative to the shell and pinch along the line from stem to end with pliers and then using 2 probes to pry the shell to get the seed out.  But really low germ rate says that is a poor choice.  Have tried scarifing the seed to scraping, sanding with no luck.  Fall a year ago enountered an article that suggest harvesting the seed when nearly ready to dry but still green and stratifing the still green seeds including some freezing.  Said the germination rate done that way was suppose to be way better.  Didn't say whether to shell the seeds out or do shell and all.  But this last spring a late frost meant no seeds to play with last fall that one is still on my to try list.

At any rate hope this helps.

Best luck here has been in a folded paper towel (2 to 4 squares worth folded into 1/4's) wetted completely but not quite soaked in hydrogen peroxide in about a quart zip lock or sandwich size zip lock.(  The hydrogen peroxide greatly reduces mold problems.)  2nd part of mold control is wash the seeds multiple times.  Have had drying problem with really cheap bags so suggest heavier freezer grade or at least solid good sandwich bags not the really cheap ones and not slider type as they always leak.  Seeds just go in the middle of the layers of paper towel.  Standard off the shelf 3%.  Have had mold problems with water but much less with hydrogen peroxide.

Write the date started, variety and any special things method wise on the side of the bag.  For example best luck with apple seed was if they came straight out of the apple and were never allowed to dry on the surface.  Pull, wash and immediately bag.  That way I have a log of things tried to compare.  Now I would add one other thing here.  I have ended up wishing I kept a written log of methods so suggest a seed diary to so decades later you can remember what worked best with a given variety.(better yet start a thread here so we can all share in the information.)

Now for those of us struggling to keep up 2 other suggestions on these zip locks.  1.  Keep them where you can see them so they can't get forgotten and if forgotten you have a chance to see them if they end up germinating in the bag.(ssshhhhh we don't admit such things can happen)  2.  stand the bags vertically so you know the orientation if forgotten.  Most trees push the root down and use the seed shell as the boring head to go up.  But I had at least one variety forgotten that simply pushed the tree up and the root came out of the pod too.  Had a bunch of healthy starts forgotten in the bags and planted them only to have most of them die.  Digging up after the fact found I planted them upside down because they were one the seed stayed put.  Worst case was a batch of seed stratified for about 13 or 14 months.  Opened them to find 3 varieties germinated in the fridge and most died or were too weak to grow when found.  Got 1 successful tree out of about 40 or 50 seeds germinated.(oopsssss)

Now second best method has been simply to stratify on the tree for those that hang onto the seeds well.  Black locust, honey locust, caltapa and ash.  The locusts don't need stratification but only scarification(best luck with boiling water method) but have tried stratification anyway.  Read that the seeds that stayed on the tree thru the winter were more likely to be healthy and fertile on ash though so there are other reasons for this method.  The Caltapa this is the first year tried.  Picked the pods off the tree second Sat. in Jan. The germ rate has been nearly 100%

third best is stratifying in soil.  Have had major mold problems with this method.  Did try watering the soil with hydrogen peroxide and mold was less but still there.  Want to try oven roasting the soil at say 250 degrees(lowest my oven goes) and watering with hydrogen peroxide is the next goal here.

The one I am really struggling with finding a working method is American Linden.  Lots of lessons there but very little success.

You are talking my dream system so I can probably help with links etc.  The main difference is the goal at least starting out of having the tank as a preheater for the main water heater.

Here are the downsides on my list

1.  Space taken.  I am looking at mounting the preheat tank in the basement.  Which also means I need to be able to get it down a stairs and around a corner.  The house is designed to get a large chest freezer down but that is about all.  A box tank that big eats major space in the basement.

2.  Danger during a major tank failure.  If I have 300+ gallons of water sitting in that and it suddenly ruptures in for example an earth quake suddenly I could have 6 inches of boiling hot water to wade thru to escape the house.  If it is less than 140 degrees F probably survivable without horrible damage if I stepped fast but hotter still and I don't know if I can make it or not.  If the leak is slower the concrete of the floor will eat enough heat to moderate it so the only real risk is a tank rupture.  If doing a built in as the house was constructed would want a sub-basement within the basement capable of holding all the liquid in the tank if it ruptured with a bit of margin for error.

Now here is the video on the dream system.  Start at one hour and 9 minutes in and watch the next 45 minutes.  



Notice some things.  By having 5000 gallons in this he has 2 months of heat storage.  That would beat any run of gray days here I have had since watching close as the longest run was 17 dark gray days in a row with only about 6 hours of sun in that entire time.  By having the ability to augment it with wood heat it would get by that.  Notice a neat math fact.  every time you double the dimension of tank you increase the surface to lose heat thru by the square but the heat storage capacity by the cube.  Now I had been stuck on the word "tank" for years after seeing this because there was no way to retrofit that in my existing house.  

Then I got to this video and now suddenly I am looking at parts I can carry down the stairs and assemble.  Talking about a day and half of heat storage for a family of 4.  Betting with just me I could easily double that at hot water levels and probably double that again if I let showers etc get down to 70 or 75 degrees



The above channel as well as many others gets me combined information

The goal is to combine this with a spiral solar collector laid down flat with the tube climbing 1" per 20 feet of pipe from the outer edge to the middle.  Information suggests one 4 foot diameter spiral should almost produce enough heat to maintain the tank temperature steady most of the time.  In good times it would heat it for use some.  So thinking I need tubing to equal 2 4 foot diameter spirals for the base run.  Now flat double pane window collectors top out at roughly 140 degrees occasionally pushing towards 150.  So a 2nd collector doing evacuated tube system would eventually be added to heat the water on up giving potentially a 3 fold increase in heat storage capacity.  If the systems are built to function as drain back collectors there goes the complexities of the heat exchangers and the need for antifreeze.  While more careful design implementation is needed if all the tubing is PEX without any outdoor connectors it should hopefully be able to take freezing even if something goes wrong.  Next question PEX for absorber?  This article shows the PEX because of its thin wall and steady heat should perform nearly as good as copper.  Had 2 other articles found showing very similar results but lost the bookmarks for them in a hard drive crash and haven't found them again yet so this information isn't a one off.

tubing heat conduction for solar collector use

Notice the materials can all mostly top out right at 200 degrees F.  The EDPM is 200, the PEX is 200 and at my elevation maximum water temperature is 202 degree so worst case is within bounds is my thinking for a non pressurized system.  Figuring to build the box out of 3 layers of half inch plywood and some steel support structure.  3 layers of insulation 2 inches each.  Line the box with plastic sheet for leak prevention.  Outer layer standard extruded polystyrene where it is cooler as it won't take the inner heat.  Middle layer polyiso because it is good to 160 degree with another poly plastic layer for leak prevention.   Inner layer rock wool so as to provide a wicking layer for any leakage(rock wool will no grow mold and provides thermal mass.)  Since my box goal is just over 6 feet deep in water for 3 PSI at the bottom and rock wool is rated for just under 5 psi crush I am good that way too.  The only pressurize part of this is cold water line going in and thru the preheater water tank and back to the cold inlet of a standard water heater begin with.  An anti scald / tempering valve will need to be added to keep the outlet temperature safe.  All of the rest of the water would be open to atmospheric pressure and thus no risk.  Since the pressurized line is being heated by atmospheric hot water it could never get hot enough to be a problem.

The dream for backup for this is to build the barrel for the RMH slightly bigger than a normal barrel and spiral say 1 1/4" pipe up it in about 3 to 4 wraps with flat plate welded between to create a barrel.  Most of the squish boom arguments seem to agree pipe that large is not dangerous in a convective flow system because it can't flash enough of the water to steam at one time to be a threat.  Worst case it will sound like a percolator.  If the DYI "barrel" is 3 feet in diameter and you did 4 wraps that over 36 feet of pipe to gather heat from the RMH.  By adding the additional cooling it should actually rocket better slightly.  To catch rust flake want magnets at both inlet and outlet in a side passage trap.  To reduce deep blow back into the tank if there is a problem run the water inlet flow through a tesla valve.  No moving parts and nothing to plug off.  

The water tank gets 5 stratifiers.  1. Plate collector return, 2. evacuated tube collector return, 3. ground cooling/heating collector return 4. PV panel cooling return. 5 RMH return.

I have more links and thinking stored if wanted but this is already way too long.

Found this video interesting enough to feel like it should be shared.  Permies compatible process and something almost anyone could do.  Reading down the comments there are 2 mentions of using partly microcrystaline wax to improve the end product that might be worth playing with too.  Parafin wax and mineral oil  or Parafin wax, mineral oil and microcrystaline wax.



Also like his previous silicon one but it isn't really a good permie process.  Although for some things it might be a way better answer.  I am sure you can find if you look

trees here are the ones started from seed this year.  Foreground is Caltapa, top left is ash from really big ash and top right is aspen.  The germination rate for the caltapa was absolutely incredible

Other goal if I get the raised bed built for them is I want to try Polana raspberries to see if they will handle my extremes of weather.  Supposed to be zone 3 and slower to come out of dormancy.  I am heavy clay soils so I have to get the plants completely out of my soil thus the need for some sort of raised bed.  And I am border line zone 3 with regular cold snaps following warm up periods in the spring thus killing nearly all the 2nd year wood.

Other goals are daikon radish to produce seed for soil building with the eventual goal of soil building, sugar beets because they are supposed to break up clay soils.  

want to try a number of beets with the goal of pickled beets.  Want a beet that handles clay soils that either harvests early well or doesn't get woody if it gets big as I have major texture issues with eating the normal big beets.

Then one other one we raised growing up that I haven't done in almost 20 years is golden delicious winter squash.(orange hubbard style with with a soft mild flesh that will store till mid Jan.)

Nate Davis wrote:I think whole grains are the best since any milled grains will have long since oxidized and lost much of their nutrients. They may be a bit less digestible but when taking into account the added cost (energy) of milled grains it is negligible. If you buy bulk organic grains and mix your own tmr vs the few organic chicken feeds around, it's no contest.

I would argue that is a matter of how coarse the grind is and storage conditions.  Stored in barrels in the hot sun the ground grain smelled rancid by the end of the summer.  Stored in the granary at the north end of the building with concrete floor and walls to 3 feet and 2 layer wood the rest of the way up, in a bigger bin, the ground grain still smelled good 2 years later.  The grain stayed far cooler as that building was cool even on hot days and being in a single bigger bin meant less oxygen exposure and coarser grind means less oxygen exposure.

There are a huge number of answers.  

Geothermal cooling for everyone with the ground temperature for it.  I am going to say northern 2/3 of US and most of europe this applies to.  This is not heat pumps.

Desiccant air conditioning is another one.  Capable of working almost anywhere.  But the dream system here would probably be best used with the above.

Radiant cooling using solar panels at night.

Radiant cooling paint or cooling materials

Solar thermal air conditioning.  Would have to be stacked with other systems but could give the final edge.

Heat pipe systems

Will try and get back and post a bunch of links.

We always ran what we called ground grain.  It was equivalent to what this is calling coarse mash.  If the grain was even semi freshly ground this was the chickens preferred answer to such an extent that feeders with pellets or whole grain were completely ignored.  In our world mash was ground grain and water.  We started the chicks with chick starter always.(2 bags for usually about 35 to 40 chicks)  First bag fed pure.  Second bag was gradually mixed with more and more ground grain.  It steadily transitioned from say 90% chick starter and 10% ground grain to 10% chick starter and 90% ground grain.   The ground grain was a mixture of barley and corn.  To reduce protein some whole oats was mixed in as well when needed.  The chick starter and ground grain got us up to when Kochia started growing and then the young birds got handfuls of it too till they were old enough to be let out to graze for the afternoon.

Some comments here.  Sprouts should be added to the poll list although they probably should never ever be the primary feed as there is energy and therefore food value lost in the act of sprouting.  The reason to do some of it though because it changes the available nutrients.

Try chaining him with about 10 feet of chain to something so big he can just barely drag it.