Scott Weinberg

T Cool wrote:Peter,



According to that article you need to add some pillars inside of Pepper Shakers! More mass practically.

I think this shows that in 1928 there was a difference of opinion and lots of them. Certainly true with just about anything of that time.  Our abiilty to test ( Peter's to be suspecific ) sure does help in todays world.

May Maglock wrote:I live in WI. I'm planning on building a simple one-story (shed roof) timber frame addition (12' by 26') this summer to our small old farmhouse. The addition will attach to the long side of our house (26'). I am not an experienced builder or timber framer. I've completed two workshops, and read a lot of books, but no more experience than that.

With all of your reading, certainly the foundations for your location or soil types have been covered? Something as important as this, now would not be the time to decide that there must be a better way, most but not all, books cover what works for your area. But certainly what is good for your area, may not work for southern latitudes and so on.

May Maglock wrote:We are on a tight budget and also prefer to not use manufactured components whenever possible.

We are using red pine timbers we've cut and milled ourselves. 8x8 posts and 8x10 beams.

If I am reading this correctly, you are getting things lined up pretty well for the above ground supports? Just need to nail the below ground stuff?

I

May Maglock wrote: am wondering about using four foot deep holes with compacted gravel and either stone or cement block on top, with the piers located underneath the house posts. We would use anchor bolts to attach to black locust 8x8 sills on the perimeter (2x8 block locust joists). We'd then attach the posts to the black locust. Does this work? Is it stable enough? Will it hold the load of the addition? Or do we really need posts going into the ground for stability or other reasons?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

By digging down as you describe with stone or cement block built up to make a level based top, what is your proposed method to have every pier level?  As Tom mentioned, the sannen tubes really can help tremendously in this reguard, Set them as perfectly as possible, then decide where the level line is, cut to this line and fill the tubes. If this goes against your desire to not use commercial products, your cement blocks fall into that catergory. Stone will never get to a perfect level without concrete,  so I am just proposing cutting to the chase.   Much of this has to do with your longevity plans, if your shooting for 10 years vs 100, makes a big difference.   Knowing if your in silt, sand or extra rocky country makes a big difference as well.  

Best of success.

Gilbert Fritz wrote:To make this work economically, I'm going to need to learn to make my own wooden handles. I know that riven wood is stronger than sawn. Does anyone know of a book or website which covers the process of riven tool handle making from log to handle?

Gilbert, it has been 5 years, have you developed any skills to merchandise? if so which has been the most wanted in your neighborhood? profitable?

Did you end up becoming a handyman by choice or neccessity?

Inquiring minds want to know.

thomas rubino wrote:Hey John;
I mentioned the Walker half-barrel method.
It occurred to me that you may not know what that is.
55-gal barrels are cut in half lengthwise and set end to end on the walls for the length of your bench.
The ends are removed, other than a couple of inches, to retain the rounded shape, and cob is used over the barrels.

If you find barrels with removable tops ( banded barrel lids )  you are well on your way to saving a lot of work.  All barrels have a seam from bottom to top.
Determine which side of the seam is the single thickness for easier cutting. You can tell by looking.
Take a string before cutting, to go from this cut line all around the barrel to where you started.
Take string and just double it over so you have both ends in one hand.
Lay back on barrel and mark this 1/2 way point on opposite side of the seam, and do  on both ends of barrel. Thus one barrel gives you two perfect halves. No lop sided halves, but darn close to ideal.

A zip disk works well for this, no torch required, just your standard 4.5" angle grinder.  A very thin disk works well ( 1/16" )

Best of success.

Mark Roelofs wrote:Scott,   I thought that you were talking about flue temperatures only. Do you have your riser inside your bell? Or do you have a steel barrel first? Or a cookstove? The 500C I got from Peter van den Berg from a different thread with a similar design as mine. I will have my riser inside my bell, and since the exit temperature of the riser can be 900C, i think the 500C does not sound like a crazy number.

Makes sense what you say about adding an extra wall which will hold back the heat transfer to the kitchen, and thus either make the other side of the bell very hot, or the kitchen not warm. I have checked under the cupboards of the kitchen, but the make-up of the wall is not very clear. I see natural stone, bricks, perferated brick, a lot of cement..... The wall does go from the floor to the ceiling. Most walls in this house a very thick, so i'm assuming this will also be the case here.

This is my design/build thread: https://permies.com/t/367670/tube-Bell-heat-living-room#3737237

From the picture: the gray part is the new bell I will construct. The white wall is already exsisting, behind it is the kitchen with the tiles. At the moment there is a gaint stone chimney in front of the wall, i will take this out after the heating season is over. Only then will I know what the makeup of the wall is.

The relevance with this thread is that somebody wants to know if they can decorate their constructed bell with tiles due to thermal expansion. I have a similar situation, but the tiled wall of the bell is already there. And i'm wondering if the tiles of the kitchen are going to hold out now  that the wall becomes part of the bell.

Maybe it is better if I keep my questions in my own thread, instead of interfering in other threads with similarities.

Hello Mark,
I will try to clarify what I meant,  by the temps.  
 I have a batch box 7" in size exactly to specs at the time of build a few years ago, and I don't those specs have changed.  I did add the ( 25% ) allowed fire box length dimension, mostly because when I buck up wood, I tend to do just about as long as my bar on the saw, and already had 10 years worth bucked and split.

So yes, a single bell, with the bacth box inside, so pretty standard set up,  and at the exit height of the riser, is 100% fire brick, all around and roof of bell.  again exactly as recommended.  But here might be where we may have a misunderstanding.  While the temps of the exit of my riser, can easily be the increadible effcient burn levels of 500-900C, that is not saying my bricks get that warm, exposed yes, glowing read hot, NO.  And of course, on the outside of the bricks even less, as all bells work.    93-95C and I am letting the fire coal out, and then closing up shop until the next day.  Thus the reason the silicon is working for me.

Would I try silicon anywhere I think might hit 250-260C,  ?  NO.

I think your question and others about where/how and what as far as adhering til to the bell works well in this forum thread. But I do want to say, the difference of the exit riser temp and the exterior of the bell is huge,  When we look at expanion and contraction of the very exterior it is very low in comparison to the batch box or J tube.  And lastly, if you wish, ( and I have done ) you can place all of your tile with a small coin crack between each piece.  Then use painters tape along side every joint.  caulk up these very thin joints, and remove the tape.   NO stress, no clean up, just done and flexible.  The facade is almost entirely for looks and a bit more mass. It is not a barrier for smoke or exhaust. That work has already been done.

Best of success.
Scott

Mark Roelofs wrote:I'm working on my design where i want to incorperate an excisting wall into my bell. Im not sure yet what the wall is made of (there is a big chimney in the way), but is probably either natural stones with cement or concrete blocks filled with cement. On one side of the wall there are the tiles of the kitchen.

Is this also doomed to crack? With inside bell temperatures of 500°C and outside temperatures of 90°C (i think)? Would constructing an extra brick wall in front of this wall (so extra wall inside the bell) help to reduce the thermal stress on this kitchen wall? Would the kitchen wall still get very toasty with an extra wall in the bell?

I don't want to redo my entire kitchen with new tiles with silicone...

As I stated in previous messages, I have quit heating before the bell is up to 90C,  And I am pretty sure the inside of my bell has never been at 500C/

What is your existing wall?  and does this wall go from Floor to ceiling?  Are you expecting this side of your bell to produce heat as much as the other three sides? it is just a matter of physics, that the thinnest wall will get the most hot first, and to get a double or triple wall "toasty" the others will be more than that if they are thinner,   I know in the above posting you didn't know the make up of the wall, but if your expecting to reach that 500C all the time, well I will let others chime in on the effects of that heat on concrete blocks, over and over ( daily )  Generally to have even temps on all 4 sides of the bell, the bell itself tends to be evenly thick.  I don't mind to be corrected on this. This is just my experience.

Now back to the wall, If I am reading this right,  your wondering if you have a double brick bell placed  against the existing wall. if your going to get this third wall just as toasty?  I am thinking not.

Not sure how the previous discussions of a facade of kachelofen style tile, on the bell is translated to having to redo your entire kitchen with new tiles with silicone. Perhaps a better drawing and description of what you hope to do is in order.

I also like Fox James suggestions for possible high heat solutions.

Mike Cantrell wrote:

thomas rubino wrote:high-temperature silicon was used, which worked very well!

Thank you, Tom - this is useful!

Scott Weinberg wrote:100% was applied with lines of silicon and pressed on, and held for a bit. ( thus the smooth walls needed)

Thank you, Scott, very helpful!
Clarifying question: I read through your build thread. Was it specifically high-temp silicone caulk, or did you happen to find that a typical silicone caulk just happened to be good enough for the surface temps you expected? Do you maybe recall what silicone product it was?

I did start out with a silicon that was marked right on the tube 500 degree's for $11.99  But then read a tube with the exact  same wording, same mfg as the other for $6.99  and ended up with one more for $4/ tube  Again same words.    I could not and can not tell any difference.   I did use one tube that was white instead of clear, and probably my fault but I discolored that, not with heat but a darn bird went down my chimney and caused some smoke for a few hours. Pretty sure it was the smoke.

I am pretty sure the brand varied, but always 100% silicon,  Note: there are some creative marketing folks out there that try to get others to think that latex caulk is the same thing.   It is NOT!

Hope this helps.
Scott

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Mike;
I know of a single skin bell with a second covering of granite slabs, which are thick enough to provide some support.
Rather than refractory mortar, high-temperature silicon was used, which worked very well!
That stove is a 7" Batchbox and can get plenty hot. It has been in service for several years with no issues with the silicon.

The 1/4" ceramic tiles hold up to the heat, although some may fade in color.

I know that guy too.   As it is me! Ha!

So my take after a few years.
I would do as good of job on your brick bell as you can such as smooth strait walls.  If you want the look of the smooth  glossy ceramic tile it can certainly be done, if you bought all the same tile.
With my 7" Stove it was and is a complete experiment in looks, I tried everything I had.

Some slate tile, 4x4" granite, and every dimension of granite up to 24x24" The later being darn hard to handle as all of the granite was 1 1/8" thick, so it does add excellent mass. By the way, I already had every bit of granite at zero cost, so using what I had was no problem.

On the entire back wall of the bell, I laid the granite on its side, thus adding 4" thick of mass. Plusgave a unique look.
Front was large pieces of granite one side and tile on the other.

Left side was various layouts, again as a experiment, this is not in my living room or an area that many people see.

100% was applied with lines of silicon and pressed on, and held for a bit. ( thus the smooth walls needed)

I keep a lot of records of bell temps, vs flue temps, And at 175F. I shut it down as my flue temp starts getting up to 200F   If my bell is getting to 150F my temps are about 170F on the flue   so the correlation is pretty steady.   With a bit of calculations, I determined that my best cost efficient  gain of heat per pound of wood starts dropping off at the 175F -- other results may very. Truly this is where you start becoming a rocket scientist, in figuring out what works best, ( not the design of the unit ) but how to get the most out of it.   Where I am going with this is, at these temps no fault can be found with the silicon.

I made the front of the bell removeable or at least large enough that I could crawl in, thus this large metal plate is way above the 175F mark. It also is sealed with silicon,  And at 350 degrees, has also faired very well.  I am not going to push it any more for the above stated reasons.

So the short story-YOU could build your bell with a dozen different colors of bricks but then cover this bell with one very nice uniform type of tile-granite-soap stone  and you have a beautiful stove. Depending on your tile size, you can easily cover the bell in 1/2 day if you have a tile saw handy. Personally I would not go under 6 x 12" size, and I did use a lot of 12 x24" that cover a lot of area very quickly.

Sorry to get long winded on this.

Best of success!
Scott Weinberg

Peter van den Berg wrote:

Leonardo Bevilacqua wrote:Where can I find the formulas to calculate the dimensions of the sidewinder core?

At the moment, there isn't a central place where the figures of a Shorty core are summed up, yet. By the way, the numbers for the sidewinder version aren't any different. I don't know which sketchup file you used for upscaling, so I am unable to check whether it is correct.

But here are the numbers for the calculation, all mentioned numbers are internal.
Start with the base figure, written down as B. This is 72.34% of the diameter of the chimney pipe, equal to system size.
Width of the firebox: 2B.
Height of the firebox: 3B.
Depth of the firebox: 4B, upto 5B.
Height of the port: 2.1B.
Width of the port: 0.5B.
Position of the port in a sidewinder: centered in the port 1B from the rear wall, left or right.
Width and depth of the riser: 2B.
Heigth of the riser: 5B upto 5.5B.
Liner in the bottom half of the riser: left and right equal, seen from the port, double that thickness at the port side.
Height of the liner: 2.4B, also crossing over the port.
Resulting floor of the riser: square, each side equal to system size.
Exhaust opening of the riser: in the same wall as the port, width 2B, total square mm of the opening 100% of the chimney pipe's csa.
Heigth of the opening: follows from the calculation of the sentence above.
Piece of wall above the exhaust opening: same height as the opening.

 See https://batchrocket.eu/ontwerpen#shorty

Peter I have applied and cross checked to some of the sketch up drawings, and I think I have this correct or at least pretty close.
could you verify if I have the port depth  correct for the system size, I will do this in MM's so you don't have to convert.

130mm  size     58mm port depth
150mm             67mm
180mm             80.5mm
200mm             89mm

thank you, if these are wrong, I will reapply some math.
thank you.