Laura Overholt

I don't think sheep would be willing to stick their heads into a barrel to drink. They are very skittish in general, and don't like a dark confined space.

You've got enough property for 4-6 sheep, maybe more if you supplement with hay in winter. They will like the trees and brush. They'll eat smaller trees and strip the bark off if left too long around larger ones. You won't run out of forage in spring but winter can be a little more tricky depending on what kinds of forage you have available.

Sheep will prefer being under trees for shade, but I provide mine with a moveable shelter to protect against the rain, and I have a permanent barn I can temporarily move them into in case of a severe storm. The moveable shelter is just a basic lumber frame with two cattle panels and a tarp stretched over. I hang hay in there for them also to give them the option of dry matter in addition to their fresh grass (they need some dry matter for proper digestion). And in winter I put a tarp across the back to block the wind. They do frequently use their shelter, though it took some time for them to get used to the sound of the tarp rattling in the wind.

Sheep will NOT keep your grass short and neat. They pick and choose what they like - some stuff they'll eat right down to the ground and some stuff they won't touch even though it looks like perfectly good grass to you. Sometimes they'll just bite the top off a plant or strip the leaves and leave the stem. They won't eat anything that's unpalatable - they love orchard grass in summer but refuse to touch it in winter because it gets too tough, and vice versa for winter wheat. They won't eat grasses that have gone to seed or that are preparing to go to seed. But they will surprise you by eating things other grazing animals wouldn't touch, like brambles, thistles, and spurge. It's good to have a variety of forage for them - a few legumes, a little orchard grass and fescue, some forbs. I regularly mow my pasture to knock the tall stuff down to a manageable level and let it put out new fresh growth which they prefer. (I only have 3 sheep currently on about five acres, so I have lots of lush spring grass right now to spare.)

Figure out your fence situation before you get any sheep. I did not do this and I regret it. I am using electric netting with a solar charger, and it works fine for a few sheep but I have to move them 2 to 3 times each week, even on days when I'm exhausted (I work full time), or when it's pouring rain or hot and humid. I have 2 sections of 100' sheep netting, four sections of 100' poultry netting, and 2 sections of 50' poultry netting, all of which I got from Premier One. (I already had the poultry netting to start with so I used what I had, though I'm going to phase out the poultry netting as sheep netting is lighter and easier to move.) I basically use two to three sections to make a rectangular-ish paddock and then piggyback the next one onto the end of the previous. That way I just keep moving them back and forth across the field without having to run them from one paddock to the next, I just open the connecting fence and they move through. The netting is bulky and tangles easily, so it requires time and patience. Now that I've got a routine down pat I can move them in an hour, but it took a lot longer when I started and kept getting everything tangled up! I wish I had put in high tensile fences, but I was just 'trying sheep out' so I didn't want to go to that trouble until I knew for sure I would keep them. But fence is a major expense (even the temporary netting isn't cheap - my netting and charger cost $2000 altogether) and it's an important one. Don't skimp on fencing, especially if you have coyotes in your area. Also make sure your fence is highly visible or the sheep will run right through it, especially when you first let them into a new pasture.

You'll want to find a farm vet and have a good relationship with them before you ever need them. You WILL need them, and farm vets are getting hard to find in some places. It's rough trying to call around and find one in an emergency. If you can, find a vet that specializes in ruminants - pet vets may say they treat sheep but they really don't know all the ins and outs. You'll also want to know beforehand how far you're willing to go and how much you're willing to spend at the vet - are these pets or livestock, and how does that affect your attitude in regards to veterinary care?

I really like having sheep and they are a great addition to a homestead BUT there is a huge learning curve, especially if you've not had ruminants before. I would start with four ewes, either lambs the same age or mother-daughter pairs, to help with social bonding - four is better because they are more comfortable and less stressed in a larger group than they would be if you had just two. Don't worry about breeding for at least the first year. You'll want to get them used to being around you and letting you handle them (give them a handful of grain now and then as a treat and they will learn to look forward to seeing you). You'll want to practice trimming hooves and checking their eyes (FAMACHA) and body condition on the regular. And you'll need to learn to recognize their 'tells' so you know when you've got a problem. In my first year I lost my favorite ewe to parasites because I didn't know the signs to look for, and they were very subtle until the situation was already dire. Sheep don't like to stand out from the flock so they will pretend to be fine until they can't anymore - even going so far as to walk around with their heads down to pretend they're eating when they're really not. Interact with them every day, learn their typical behaviors, and if you see anything that seems unusual jump on it because it's probably the first small sign of a big problem.

One goat alone will be highly stressed and miserable. Two is better. Four or five is best.

(Caveat: I have sheep, not goats. But I imagine this is true either way as they are both herd/flock animals with no real defense against predators except to be part of a large group.)

If you can get a few does I'd recommend starting there. If you've never had goats I wouldn't worry about milk right away, I'd start with young does and figure out a) whether you actually like having them, b) how to keep them alive and in good health, and c) how to keep them inside your pasture (since they're known for being escape artists). You can also train them to come when called (a very important skill for them to learn) and to stand quietly on the milking stand long before you actually need to start milking. Once you're comfortable looking after the does, then get your billy & learn everything else that goes with that (breeding, pregnancy, birth, milking, etc).

Since I'm here - I might as well mention a few regrets I've had since getting my first ruminants:

I didn't have secure perimeter fences up. I am using electric netting to rotate my sheep on pasture, but if the fence isn't hot enough (due to grass touching the strands) the sheep will chew on it and/or stick their heads through it. I've had a sheep pull the fence down, I've had them run through it a few times when they were feeling frisky, and a couple times a strong gust of wind has blown it over when I couldn't sink a post deep enough in stony ground. I really wish I'd done perimeter fencing first. Sheep aren't even pushy about fences the way goats will be. For goats good fencing is a definite must.

I didn't take the threat of parasites seriously enough. I originally wasn't rotating my sheep as often as I should have, and one of my ewe lambs got very sick as a result. I spent $400 getting her treated for bottle jaw (anemia) and what the vet said was the worst parasite infestation he had ever seen. If I hadn't had Katahdins (which are an exceptionally hardy breed) he said I'd have lost the sheep. Goats and sheep both suffer from the same parasites, and it's impossible to truly eliminate them, so you have to stay on top of it. The best way to do that is to keep them moving around the pasture so that they can't ingest new parasites from the eggs that they've shed in their poop.

I didn't research veterinarians in my area before buying sheep. I had an emergency soon after bringing my sheep home - a lamb choked on pelleted grain and started to bloat - and I had no idea what to do or who to call. Fortunately we got through it and the lamb survived, but that was a traumatic experience for both of us. I looked up farm vets afterward and found that the closest vet who treats small ruminants in my area is about two hours away...which is not ideal. For him to come to me it's $300 just for the travel alone, never mind the cost of any treatments. It's not a dealbreaker for me owning sheep but it's something I should have known beforehand.

I didn't have a decent winter pasture stockpiled. My sheep eat a lot more than I ever realized they would or could. Katahdins will eat browse as well, and they'll eat weeds that cows and horses won't. But I still wound up having to buy hay in mid-winter to supplement their grazing so that they didn't run out of pasture too soon. Goats will be a slightly different story as they eat more browse than grass, but keep in mind that they'll probably eat more than you expect, and you'll need to know what's going to be available to them when nothing is growing (depending on where you are and what your growing season is).

Good luck!

I'm leaning more towards rooted cuttings. Seeds will take a lot longer, and I would really like Yuzu lemons in a few to several years, not 10 to 12 years.

That's what I was going to recommend, but I only know US growers and I didn't know whether you'd be able to buy seedlings or rooted cuttings in Canada. If you can get them, that's definitely the best way to go so you get a good head start.

I don't know yet if I can grow them here - I only just planted them in August, so we'll see if they make it through the winter. If they do survive, I intend to plant several more, as well as some other cold-hardy citrus like satsumas and ichang lemons.

I have two yuzu just planted this fall in my garden (Maryland 7B/borderline 8A). I got rooted cuttings from Georgia Grown Citrus.

Jane Squier on youtube has been successfully growing citrus (including yuzu) in her greenhouse on Salt Spring Island, BC.

I haven't been seeing as many birds because I stopped putting feeders out per MD DNR recommendations. I still see woodpeckers in and around the pecan trees in my backyard, and there are a pair of mourning doves in my garden every morning right as the sun comes up. The hummingbirds are still around, squabbling as always, though they should be moving south pretty soon.

We had an unusual number of blue jays last winter and into the spring, but they disappeared again when the weather warmed up. I haven't seen any yet this fall but it's been pretty warm still, we had temps in the 90s F a few days ago.

I have noticed that the starlings are already starting to gather, which I normally don't see until a bit later in the fall. I'm wondering if that means we'll be in for a colder winter this year.

I can't believe folks are tossing the gizzards and hearts to the dogs. They're delicious!

When I bake a chicken I always add veggies (potatoes, carrots, mushrooms, celery) and giblets to the bottom of the pan. I add enough chicken broth to cover them and bake everything together. The veggies end up tender and flavorful. The gizzards...well, we kinda like the chewiness? They are good, though! And the hearts are definitely the favorite, we never have any of those left over.

Peevish Raspberry Woodland

Skandi Rogers wrote:I suspect you would need to remove all the soil from inside the barn (no concrete floor? sounds odd to me) it will be seriously polluted with way to much fertiliser.  Just putting the cow crap out on a field in a heap for one winter stunts the plants in that area the next year, I hate to think what 25 years of chickens and no rain will have done.

Heating, what's your heating plan for winter? You're going to need a huge heating unit to keep that size building out of danger of freezing.

There's no concrete floor in a commercial broiler house. The floor is packed earth with a foot or two of sawdust on top. Concrete would stay too wet and cold, I think. In ideal conditions the litter is supposed to stay fairly dry through the whole flock.

I know that it's recommended to remove the top 2 to 6 inches of soil when converting chicken houses for other uses. And I'd need to do something to balance the pH. I'd have to have the soil tested to know exactly what it needed, and then tested again after I added some amendments.

I would prefer not to heat the greenhouse, though I'll need some kind of emergency backup for those very rare occasions when temps here get below 30 degrees for any length of time. I live in zone 7B, and we're fairly well-protected by the Chesapeake Bay on one side and the Atlantic Ocean on the other. We rarely even get more than a dusting of snow here. There have been a couple years where we had temps in the 80s at Christmas!

With no chickens right now the temps in the buildings have stayed above freezing even on the coldest days. But there's a foot of sawdust & manure on the ground. It doesn't generate a lot of heat, but it makes a little - just enough to keep the pipes from freezing. Once that litter is gone I'll need to have something else in place to basically do the same thing. Most citrus, as far as I have seen, can survive down to about 35 F as long as it's protected from frost.

I'm looking at the methods used by a lady in British Columbia who is growing citrus in a conventional greenhouse. I don't know what zone she's in exactly, but I know that she also utilizes a wood gasifier for heat to keep her greenhouse above 3 C (37 F) in winter, so I'll have to look into what that would take to set up. She also uses pools in her greenhouse for thermal mass, and if they get a cold spell she'll heat those pools as well to keep the greenhouse warmer.

I do plan on selling wholesale as well as at the farmer's market, and I want to have more crops than just citrus so that I'm not completely dependent upon one crop. I'm still trying to figure out what those other crops would be, though.

Stacy Witscher wrote:You can get plenty of production out of a 8 foot tree. And from a single Meyer lemon we would get 200-300 lemons a year.

Thank you so much for the info! That's exactly the kind of thing I need to know!

I do have blood oranges and Thai limes on the list, too, though the market for the leaves would be slim in this area I think.

kevin nachman wrote:Sounds mainly like a pipe dream honestly... No way your citrus could compete with commodity citrus at the grocery stores it’s just too cheap to buy and only a select few are willing to pay extra for higher quality fruit.

I appreciate your candor! That's what I was looking for, hard as it is to hear.

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with you on the point quoted above... The citrus at the grocery stores is just not very good - especially once you get a taste for something picked fresh. Grocery store citrus tends to be dry and bland, and sometimes it has an off taste 'cause it's been sitting in a truck and on a shelf for so long. I think if I could grow some good oranges and get people to taste them I'd have repeat customers for sure. They'd buy from me for the exact same reasons that they go to the farmer's market for tomatoes - even though there are plenty of tomatoes available in the grocery store, and at a lower price. I mean otherwise nobody would be buying tomatoes and watermelons and peaches and all the rest of it at the farmer's market at all when it's definitely cheaper and more convenient to get those things at the grocery store. People want fresh produce when they can get it because they know it's worth going a little out of their way to get it. Given the number of roadside citrus stands I saw in Florida, I'd say that's true of citrus as well.

But you're right in that commodity citrus is very cheap at the store. I would need to price my fruit high enough that I'm making at least a little bit of a profit, without being so high that people don't want to spend that kind of money on it. And it would take a few years for my trees to really start producing. They'd need care and maintenance in the meantime - that's a lot of time and expense at the beginning for something that may or may not be profitable in the end.

I think I need to sit down and add up what my costs would be (including my time), how long I could expect trees to produce, and how much they would produce, then come up with a price point (wholesale and retail) for the product before I'll know whether or not it's a project worth doing. Right now I don't have enough information.

Thanks for your feedback!