Abe Sweeney

Thank you both very much!

I read a bit a few years ago about the protective nature of daffodils around seedling trees (e.g. grass & critter control).

In my haste I planted them a bit too close - maybe 5 or 6 bulbs in a smallish circle, maybe a foot from the seedlings - in this case pawpaws and persimmons.

As the trees have gotten a little bigger and the bulbs have multiplied it is looking a little crowded, giving me some concern for the young tree roots ability to freely spread.

I'm trying to determine if I'm worrying about nothing, or if it would be better to try and carefully get those bulbs out and relocate them further out to the eventual drip line of those trees - I just don't care to do much digging in that critical root zone.

Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated!

Thanks Josh and Abe for your replies, very helpful.

I've learned a lot of the same lessons as you, Abe, and employed a lot of the same strategies.  The area I'm working on isn't irrigated, so I bought a bladder for my truck and haul it in to hand-water.  I initially planted on the edges of the field where there was some timber and worked my way in, but I'm switching over to planting on contours with some poor-man's swales (e.g. logs laid across the hill) to try and ease the watering burden.

I also started experimenting with some deer fencing and am getting ready to try a few other tricks - some foul smelling sprays and motion activated lights - to try and change their habits.  Not super hopeful for either but worth a shot.

I saw you offer honey locust seedlings Abe - those are one species that thrives on this area and I'm extremely prejudiced against them and their wicked thorns.  I'll gladly give you all of mine!

Cheers!

Thanks very much for your replies.

I did study the Miyawaki method a few years ago, and there is an individual near me - Marcin Jakubowski - who has applied this on a similar scale to what I am considering.

https://www.opensourceecology.org/open-source-ecology-afforestt-workshop/

I traded a few emails with him a few years ago, and although it was relatively new, it sounded like it was working well.  His basic suggestion to me was to do intensive planting on contour with native species.

I suggest doing 1 meter wide keylines every 50 feet using the Miyawaki method, or even 1 cubic meter pockets. Once the fertility starts in the worked area, mycelium and worms will do the rest of the work to the dead zones.

I had gotten caught up in my OCD need to "do something" by digging lots of holes, but I think this hybrid approach makes sense.

There are still plenty of oak / hickory / walnut trees around here to reseed, so the Marcin / Miyawaki method seems like a reasonable way to make the best use of available water and let the trees fight it out to see which one really belongs in a given spot.

Check back with me in 30 years to see how it is going

There is some pretty interesting reading on this topic it turns out, including this article:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210524-the-reason-wild-forests-beat-plantations

Proponents are arguing for natural regeneration to be taken more seriously in national and international efforts to mitigate the climate and biodiversity crises. Recent research has shown that natural regeneration can potentially absorb 40 times more carbon than plantations, and provide a home for more species. It is also significantly cheaper than tree planting, with different studies in Brazil showing costs reduced by 38%, or even up to 76%.

A wise man once told me "don't just do something, stand there!"  Maybe I should do just that.

For the last several years I've been actively trying to reforest some hayfields - around 20 acres.  My state has an amazing program for cheap native tree seedlings, I've planted maybe 250 trees in the last 3 years.

As many threads here discuss (https://permies.com/t/123718/plant-LOT-trees-efficiently-reforest) the planting is the easy part, keeping them alive is the challenge.  I've built and put up more tree cages than I can count (fencing the whole area isn't feasible) but between the deer and watering and mulching it is a very labor intensive process.

I'm not picky about species - I always plant natives and try to match them to their desired locations.

My neighbor moved to this property about 35 years ago, and a portion of the property between us he ignored since then.  It was predictably colonized initially by things like sumac, then eastern red cedar, and eventually oaks and other species started to pop through to eventually take over.

I love the process, but I'm questioning whether the active approach is in any way superior.  If I don't care about the intermediate aesthetics or access, is there any reason why me guessing which species should grow in a particular location or configuration would be more successful in the long run than just walking away (with occasional forays to remove invasive species)?  

I'm also a little influenced by recently reading The Hidden Life of Trees which may have some shaky science, but makes some reasonable arguments about the advantages of a hands off approach.

I'm sure there isn't a definitive answer, but I'm relatively new to this, and curious to hear what the experience has been for others with similar goals.

These are great resources, thank you again.

Hi Ed - thanks for the reply.  I'm a big fan of your work

I'm leaning that way - I'm in the process of getting some detailed mapping done via photogrammetry on the place.  I've been reading some good outcomes from working with consultants in this forum which is encouraging.

I'm having a hard time narrowing down the "scope" for lack of a better term.  Someone like Geoff who has a lot of practical "guru" experience at a high level?  Someone like Elemental Ecosystems which seems to focus more specifically on earthworks and water management?  Maybe a local resource who is in tune with the flora and fauna of the area?

I'm not afraid about making an investment to get the right answer, just don't want to get into analysis paralysis and have a lot of expensive thought exercises without getting my hands dirty.

I think the only way to answer that is to have some conversations with potential partners and figure out who we click with.

The book that Anne mentioned looks great as well, I've not read that one but it is next on my list.

Thanks again!

Thank you Anne!

I recently bought 25 acres of cow pasture in SW Missouri.  It is near where I live so won't be a homestead, but I would like to apply some permaculture principles as appropriate.  My goals are non-economic, and include:

- Some reforestation
- Some "food forest" type of setup, fruit and nut trees, native berries, etc.
- Some 'prairie' restoration with wildflowers and native grasses

I've not taken a PDC course but have read a decent bit on the subject, and have two primary questions.

First, in general, would it be advisable to invest in detailed maps, designs, and expert assistance?  I've looked at services from Geoff Lawton and others.

Second, if I choose a "diy" method, what are the steps to take, primarily around water usage?  The property has relatively dry slopes from the East and West down to a floodplain that stays fairly wet but not soggy, and is bisected by a (usually) dry creek.  There is an existing pond that holds a small amount of water, although I'm not sure if it will continue to do so now that the cows have been removed.  I'd like to  make the best use of water, and get the existing pond to be consistently full, or use the existing contours to get an additional pond (or ponds).

I'm fairly sold of the "swales on contour" concept but not sure if it would be appropriate for my purposes or overkill.

I've attached a few images here to show the property.  Existing trees are mostly native - sycamore, black walnut, oak, and a lot of honey locust.

The high point of the property is in the upper left, the blue lines are existing small ravines where the water flow has dug channels.  The yellow line represents a sort of bowl - the area inside of that yellow line to the creek is fairly flat.  There are rental houses on the right edge that will remain in place.